#98 Utilising Scientific Research & Critical Thinking as Equestrians with Elisa Walfish

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:01-00:00:09]
In this episode, we're talking with Elisa Walfish, a certified equine manual therapy practitioner and host of the EquiScience podcast.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:11-00:00:30]
When you're riding your horse and it starts swishing its tail, ask yourself, does my horse always swish their tail? Like, is this maybe something that I should be looking at? Maybe I should give, you know, a week off and see, does it come back, you know, or does it go away and then does it come back? So that's really important. What you're saying about the little things is usually it is the little things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:31-00:01:47]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Elisa Walfish, also known as the Data-Driven Equestrian, is a biologist by training and a certified equine manual therapy practitioner through Equinology, specializing in functional postural rehabilitation, myofascial and nervous system relaxation, and equine sports massage. Elisa's approach combines a scientific understanding of the body with targeted manual techniques to guide the horse towards greater comfort, balance, and overall well-being. Her platform of the data-driven equestrian explores the intersection of biology, physiology, and horsemanship to offer evidence-based solutions for improving the physical and mental well-being of sport horses. Through a scientific lens, Elisa aims to optimize care practices and promote not only peak performance, but also longevity and happiness for the equine athlete. I loved this conversation and I can't wait to share it with you. So let's dive in. Elisa, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I was just saying early before we started recording how much I've been wanting to have her on. So I'm really excited to have this conversation. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:48-00:01:49]
Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So I always like to go back to the very beginning, find out people's kind of origin stories with how they got into whatever it is that they're doing specifically. So I'd love to know what originally pulled you towards the world of equine science and bodywork.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:06-00:02:08]
Oof, that's a very long story. I'll try to...

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:08-00:02:10]
We got time.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:11-00:05:17]
Excellent. But I do feel like my story is kind of like that typical journey of anybody that works in, you know, the equine industry at the moment. You know, there's always that horse where... You have to, like, you know, be more independent in finding solutions for your problems. And that kind of, like, pushes you through a path of... further education. And I think for me, I mean, I've always been in the equine industry and I've always, you know, wanted to make it my life's mission. But, you know, coming from a horse family, that's not really, that's never been in horses. I've had to take that kind of traditional route. So I did become a biologist. But soon after I finished school, I bought Nova and who came with a myriad of problems and kind of forced me to use, and I'm really happy to have gone into biology because it really did give me the tools to be more independent in research and kind of be able to have that skill set of critical thinking to kind of know in what direction to go to find answers. And so I kind of figured out that what I need is to learn anatomy and to learn biomechanics. And that was kind of what pushed me to go to bodywork school because that kind of gives you that base knowledge into what to observe in a horse that's maybe not, you know, 100% itself or not sound. And so I did body work school and then I really got into researching all these topics that I had questions on. And then I was like, you know, I'm finding out all these things that are not kind of public knowledge or that are not as accessible as they should be because they're all under like. you know scientific publications and paywalls and stuff like that which I have access to with the university working as you know working in research and so I started my Instagram account where I just kind of posted everything that I was finding out through questions that I had regarding NOVA and I found out pretty quickly that people are very hungry for knowledge and They really, really, really are. And so that kind of blew up pretty fast. And then I started the podcast because I wanted something where it could be more long form and that I could actually have conversations with these researchers that write these papers and publish these papers and, you know, have boots on the ground doing this research that we use after to manage our horses. Right. And so I really wanted to make all of that accessible and user friendly in a sense. And then I just kind of got so entrenched into equine bodywork and biomechanics and equine science that I left biology and became a full-time bodyworker. And so that's where I am now.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:05:19-00:07:22]
I resonate so much with your story. I've been really fortunate here with WeHorse where they've allowed me the space to kind of take the creative reins with this podcast. And like... you know, interview the people that I feel most drawn towards or like I feel like there's so much to learn from, you know, discuss the topics that maybe are lacking in the industry or that I feel could use, you know, a louder voice. And similar to you, it was all driven from my experience originally starting with my Mayor Soda, you know, where I just felt like I was constantly asking the question, why? And As, you know, an adult amateur, like just a horse owner, nobody that is necessarily, quote, professional within the industry, I felt like this experience of almost being gaslit, where I was seeking so much more understanding of her pathologies and what was going on in her body and why she was having this behavior and, you know, all of these different things. And instead, just almost feeling like I was being dismissed as an owner, as if like, pfft, you don't need to know this stuff. You're just the owner. Meanwhile, I'm the primary care person for this horse. Like I, I am her protector. I am her guardian. You know, like I, it is my due diligence to understand what is going on in her body and, you know, and all of the different things. Um, and it's conversations like this that I, I just, I want to be able to share this knowledge with other adult amateurs, other horse owners. And so I love what you're doing so much because you, you are like that, um, That person leading the way that is saying, here's critical thinking, here's scientific research, here's all these different things that we can be doing to essentially do better, not only as horse owners, but horse riders, but equestrians in general.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:23-00:10:04]
I love what you're saying so much because you're right, like we're our horse's voice, we're their advocate and we are their specialists, right? We are the people that spend the most time with them, that recognize their patterns, that know what their baseline is. And I think that is such, it's such an important part of investigating, you know, what's going on with your horse. As soon as you start diverging from that baseline that you know your horse is used to, And, you know, you get that feeling where he's not like he's supposed to be. He's not like he's not acting normal. And then you have the tools and the knowledge and you recognize the patterns that are useful for investigation for your equine professionals. For me as a professional, I need knowledge. I ask questions for two hours from beginning to end. I'm treating the horse, and at the same time, I'm asking question after question after question because in my mind, I'm always putting the puzzles together, and I'm always drawing a picture. I feel like an image that I have in my head is those huge billboards in crime scenes, and then they have pictures and then strings going from one end to the other. That's my head when I'm trying to figure out what's happening inside your horse's body. I'm not a vet, so I don't have... You know, like that kind of, how would I say it, like that kind of diagnostic protocol that they usually go through. So I have to like. really start digging into my brain and making connections in a different way than a vet would. And so I think that it's a good compliment to have with all of your equine professionals. You need to have that same type of communication with your hoof care provider, with your osseo, with your massage therapist, with your vet, with your nutritionist, with your dental care professional. you need to have that type of understanding of your horse that's going to help your professional to dig deeper and make those connections and be able to help you find out what's going on with your horse. But I think that it starts with you knowing how to recognize those patterns and how to kind of follow the progression of what's going on with your horse and to be able to communicate that properly with your equine professional. But if you have An equine professional that's gaslighting you or telling you that it's behavioral or that it's normal, just keep working. Like you need to think really hard about, you know, if you need that professional in your life or if you should maybe start looking for a new one.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:10:04-00:11:07]
Yeah. There's, in my experience, I feel like there's kind of two sides to this, where on one hand, you have maybe the owner that is seeking more information or seeking more answers or, you know, just wants to better be able to help their horse. And then the professionals who are Maybe you aren't willing to shed as much light to the owner. And then on the other side, you also have or I've seen instances where it's the opposite. The professional is saying, hey, here's these things that you need to be able to acknowledge. Here's these changes you need to be able to make in order to really give your horse that proper quality of life and the owner being unwilling to. to make those changes or have those conversations. Why do you think it is that within the horse industry, this is kind of a loaded question, people are unwilling to make these changes even when they're scientific research presented?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:10-00:14:05]
I think that the equine industry as a whole is really far down the path of tradition. And I think that we're being passed. And it's funny that you talk about that because I did read a study that they did. on um the lack of change in uh equestrian's behavior so it's kind of like a psychological analysis of why we're unwilling to change why we're unwilling to take scientific proof and apply it uh in you know a concrete way in in the field right and it's largely about They say incompetence, but I think that's the technical term that they use. But I think that they're just trying to say the lack of ability to do so. So it could be from lack of, you know, resources, could be from lack of knowledge, could be from lack of support. in their environment. I think that the environment in which you hold yourself as an equestrian has huge influence on how you treat your horse, basically. You know, like a really... basic level. And I think that you start confronting all of those, you know, all of those values that you've had as an equestrian since the beginning of time, when you start suggesting that your horse will be better if you make really massive changes, right? So I think that for me as a professional, it's a situation that I'm in a lot where I really need to be able to read the person and be able to give advice according to what I think that they're ready to hear and how I think that to which degree that they're going to take it seriously, right? And so I think that it's important for someone that you think is going to have a harder time making those changes to just plant the seed, right? And sometimes that really goes a long way. And, you know, this goes for like turnout, just turnout. Let's just use turnout as an example, right? And, you know, you kind of make those links in what's happening with the horse towards a horse just not getting enough turnout. And how do you kind of put that in a horse owner's head that, you know, like your horse needs more movement, but what if they're at a barn that has too you know, controlled turnout or not a lot enough land to have 24 seven turnout with friends and stuff like that. Like, you know, how do you how do you approach that? And so I think it really depends on the environment that the person is in and the resources that they have to make those changes. I don't know if that answers your question.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:14:06-00:14:15]
So what I loved so much about that was how on brand you were when I was like, yeah, here's this thing that could be an opinion. And you were like, well, based on the scientific study.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:14:16-00:14:27]
Always, always. My friends are so sick of hearing that. I read a study the other day. Shut up, Lisa. Always.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:14:27-00:15:10]
It was so good. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about some of the myths that have been debunked based on scientific research. What are some things that maybe have been, you mentioned, you know, the idea of traditionalism in the equestrian industry, which I very much agree with. So when you consider things that have always, you know, quote, been done that way, or, you know, that's how my trainer taught my trainer who taught their trainer and dah, dah, dah, dah. What are some myths that have come up in research or sorry, like what are some things that have been debunked from research that people are still holding on to because of traditionalism? If you want to go there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:15:11-00:19:08]
There's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot. But, you know, it's things that we probably won't see because of the fact that people are not ready to hear it. And so it stays kind of, you know, buried. One thing that surprised me a lot is how little, and this is not just for horses, it's for dogs as well, but how little evidence there is on the efficacy of glucosamine. And pretty much any, you know, joint supplement that we have, there's very, very, very little evidence that any of it actually works. Um, so orally, these types of remedies that we use to relieve symptoms of osteoarthritis and stuff like that, or just joint health as a whole, really doesn't have any scientific ground, you know, for, for, you know, for using these, these supplements. And so that was something that was very surprising to me because of how largely they're sold, you in tech shops and everywhere. I think the best thing that you could give your horse for joint health is omega-3s and omega-6s, which is so far from all these mixes that we're making with MSM and glucosamine and You know, all these these products that are sold. And I think that marketing is really, really good at convincing us that it would work. So supplements is something that, you know, not just glucosamine, but there's a lot of supplements that, you know, really don't have a lot of evidence. But we love, love, love, love to give our horses supplements. Another one is a bit more complex, but it's kind of the basis to a lot of other things in the equine industry. And that's kind of a biomechanics theorem that's called the bow and string theory. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. Yeah. So basically what that defines is the mechanism in which the top line is used on a horse throughout the locomotion of the horse. And so where it focuses on kind of that give and take from the abs to the top line is kind of the mechanism that we focus on. But people forget that, you know, the protraction and retraction of the limbs is an extremely important part of activating this mechanism. And so we have a lot of training aids that promise all these results with helping your horse's top line and muscling your horse in general. That forget, you know, a huge part of activating that whole mechanism as a whole. And so they become, you know, useless. And so, you know, some things like the PASOA system that, you know, there's a lot of studies that show that it helps to shorten the stride that collects the horse. And so people kind of see a collected horse as a horse that's using its core, its top line muscles. But it's actually the opposite because these, you know, training is they're slowing down the horse and they're slowing or they're shortening the stride. They're shortening the protraction and the retraction that they need. to activate these muscles efficiently. And so that's something that, you know, kind of bleeds into everything we know about exercising a horse. You know, you need a horse to have impulsion. You need a horse to be relaxed in the top line. You need a horse to, you know, be able to move freely. And when you're using training aids, you're stopping all that natural movement from happening and and not helping the horse to move efficiently nor using their muscles in an efficient way.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:19:11-00:21:40]
I have a part two to this question. So, When we think of, okay, here's, again, traditionalism. This is what I've always been taught. This is, you know, using air quotes, this is the way it's always been done. Another one is, this is just how my horse always is. Like, you know, it's all of those things that we just kind of lump into a blanket statement. and therefore can be a little unwilling to change or make adjustments. And so then we have things like that come out, exactly what you had just said, and so many others of these training aids aren't doing what we think they're doing. These supplements are being, you know, peed out, we're wasting our money, like they're not effective, you know, etc. And so from the horse owner's perspective, we read this marketable copywriting and we think that's the answer to my problems this training aid this supplement this saddle pad this you know xyz you name it that's the answer to my problems because of professional copywriting that has been used in the marketing or the magical before and afters and you know things like that and so um when those things are debunked through scientific research The feeling that so many horse owners, and I'll speak for myself here as well, can get is, well, where do I go from here? Well, now what? If not that, then what? And the feeling of almost being lost, like, again, I'm just trying to do the best that I can for my horse. And if this is saying, or this person is saying, or this study is saying that this isn't working, then what? So What is your advice for, you know, the horse owners in those circumstances to kind of balance that critical thinking with also, you know, The feeling of part of me almost wants to say, like from my own experience, this feeling of like almost being alone in this, like, can somebody just help me then? You know, what do you think I should do? You know, all of that, which again comes into the critical thinking. But what is your advice for those those studies that when you read that, OK, this isn't working, then where do we go from here? Does that question make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:41-00:25:10]
Absolutely. And it's like, honestly, a question that I get asked all the time. And, you know, I'm talking with a client and they're just like, yeah, but I read this and it says this. And I'm like, yeah, but you know, you kind of like I'm. Like I'm always trying to, you know, and that's what science is, right? It's like it's researching something and then trying to disprove it your entire life. And that's what being a researcher is basically. And so you kind of have that reflex of always being like, yeah but are we sure that this has been done properly and are we sure that this is factual and are we sure that this is going to work on your horse and so when i get asked that question the first thing i want to say is throughout like all the studies that i've ever read the thing that comes up the most is the individualism of the results And so when you have an average and it's really hard to get, you know, a statistical significant result in a study that's going to tell you, OK, yes, this works. No, this does not work. It's really, really hard because there's a lot of individual fluctuation between, you know, the horses that are used in the sample. And what we're figuring out is that the answer is always it depends because it depends on the environment of the horse. It depends on the horse itself. It depends on, you know, like the environment. It depends on the training and the upbringing of the horse. And so what you need to know is that whatever you see on the Internet, that it has been proven scientifically or not, or any information that you get is going to depend on how compatible it is with your horse. And so that's why it goes back to the question of really being the expert on your horse, knowing your horse's baseline and be able to kind of. Let's say you want to know what are the best supplements for my horse's specific condition and you're looking on the internet for information and let's say you do find a reliable source that has actual evidence that your work isn't done. You have to take that information and figure out like the, you know, in which context is the study has been made in which context are these, you know, these, these facts being the facts that are being, you know, portrayed in this study or in this statement, are they compatible with what my horse is living right now, how my horse is living right now, what my horse needs at the moment. And so that's why I, You know, it's really confusing because it's almost turning into anecdotal evidence, but you need to know what's compatible with your horse and you need to, you know, to try it for... And find out what, how would I say this? Like, find out what are the chances, according to the compatibility, that it works with your horse and if it's worth trying, basically, is what I could say. And so, yes, there's a lot of information out there. But that's why you need to be really, really educated on your individual horse. And that's the only way that you're going to be able to find the correct answers and the correct protocols that your horse needs.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:11-00:26:22]
One of the other things that I have experienced as well is not trying everything all at once because then you don't know what's actually working or not working. So it's like our kind of go-to is like, okay, there's this issue going on or I'm noticing this, so I'm going to throw this supplement at it. I'm going to change up this supplement. you know, farrier, I'm going to, you know, get my saddle, you know, reflocked. And, you know, we're going to start working with this trainer. And suddenly, you notice a little bit of a change, but you don't know which one it is, because you've, you know, changed everything all at once. And And so that is something as well that I've kind of noticed is that, you know, similar to what you were saying is become the expert on your horse and get really almost put on that like researcher hat. Like you're, you know, you're the one doing all the little experiments on everything. And then you are more prepared to bring that information to the professionals. Just don't do it all at once because then no one knows what's happening. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:23-00:26:24]
No, exactly.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:24-00:28:24]
Yeah. One other thing is actually something that came up very recently for me. I had my osteopath come out. My mare, I'm noticing a change in her facial structure, the way that she's eating and chewing and things like that. And so I'm very fortunate that I have my horses at home. And so I'm the one that feeds them. So I'm seeing the food that's falling out of her mouth. I give her Prevacox. And so I hand feed that to her because if not, I don't know if she's actually getting it if I just chuck it in her food. So I hand feed it to her before she gets, you know, her breakfast and that. And so I'm the one that's noticing that. The changes that I'm I'm seeing, I've noticed how she's changing the way that she's taking the Prevacox from my hand, things like that. So I have that information to then bring to the osteopath, to then bring to the vet, to then bring to, you know, whomever to say that. And I said to my osteo, she was here on Thursday. I said, if I was still boarding my horses, I never would have noticed these things. Because, you know, somebody else had been feeding. There's like, you know, a lot of times there's 30 horses and they're chucking some food in a bucket and they're on to the next one. They're not really noticing all the things. And so this is a really difficult question. Um, because it is so challenging and it can feel, you know, when I was going through so much with my horse, I was boarding and I did feel really challenged to know what was going on since I wasn't the primary care person. Um, what... Is your advice for those who are boarding, who aren't the ones that, you know, are there for the horses feeding and in some cases not there for the horses farrier or vet or, you know, whomever, when, when they have, you know, a barn staff that's able to hold their horses for them.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:26-00:30:45]
Oh, that is a tough question. Um, I mean, it's really hard to know exactly what's going on when you're not there, obviously. I think that what I really like to tell my clients, though, is to keep logs. And so, you know, to be able to, when you go to the barn, what is it that you notice? And sometimes you're able to understand what's happening behind the scenes through patterns that you recognize on that maybe one hour a day that you see your horse. And so, you know, let's say and we'll use your example with the private cocks. Let's say you're you're scoring your horse. Every time you train your horse or you work with your horse, you have like an attitude scale and then like a range of motion scale and like maybe just a willingness to work scale. And just, you know, you can make invent your own scales and, you know, kind of use that process that that's that's, you know, makes sense to you. And then maybe if you're seeing like a regression, is it because they're not taking their their private clocks? Is it because the problem is getting worse and requires maybe, you know, a stronger drug or another plan of action? So I think that by writing down. Your observations and obviously, you know, I'm saying this from a researcher point of view, but writing down your observations is the best way that you could start noticing patterns. And then, you know, this is how I found out that my mare was going lame. Her lameness was getting worse on one period only. And then, you know, I couldn't I couldn't kind of make the link between because she had a lot of ups and downs, but I wanted to know what causes the downs. And it was cyclical. You know, I kind of figured out by writing down by doing observation that, you know, maybe it was linked to something that had to do with her heat cycle or maybe, you know, the seasons. And so, yeah. You know, you you won't ever recognize these patterns if you're not writing them down and analyzing them in a concrete way. And so I think that if you're if you're not able to be and even if you are there, you should be doing it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:45-00:32:10]
But I mean, if you're not able to be there as. often as you'd like to or to be able to observe every single you know part of their lives like like you would if your horse is in your backyard then um just writing down everything that you do see kind of helps you to uh make assumptions on what's happening when you're not there to a certain extent but yeah that is you know it's a hard situation and but i think that that that would help a lot is to document No, I appreciate you saying that because I mean, the majority of people listening would be boarding their horses. And it's just something that I always kind of felt like it was a wall that I was coming up against when I was boarding as well. Like you had said, documenting is so huge. Taking photos, like writing notes, noticing like little changes like that, but actually documenting it because we have so much that goes on in our lives like every single day. saying, Oh, I'll just remember this. Like, isn't always going to happen. And, you know, I, I used to do it too, where I would say, Oh, I'm just going to make an, like a little mental note of that. And then call in, you know, my osteo or call in, you know, whomever the vet, you know, something like that. And then a few weeks later when, you know, our appointment time would be, and then I would be thinking, well, was it this foot or that foot?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:32:10-00:32:11]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:12-00:32:32]
You know, you're trying to remember what it was and if I had just written it down. You know, so it's those little things where you take the photo, take a video. If you're noticing like a behavioral that's, you know, kind of interesting and it might be hard to explain, take a video of it. You know, all of those different things, like you said, to make notes is so helpful.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:32:34-00:33:30]
And one of the, you know, so surprising, but one of the questions that people are, you know, the most unable to answer is when I ask them, are they better on the right lead or the left lead? And so that kind of tells me, you know, one side of the horse is one side of the horse dysfunctional is one side of the horse more restrained than the other in terms of, you know, muscular integrity. And, you know, people are like, oh, remember and it's just like it and it's something so simple that every time you you ride your horse you feel it right you have maybe an arm that's more sore than the other because your horse is a little bit heavier on one side than the other and it's just because we're human you know our memory works that way we need to you know you need to write it down and and after that that becomes very valuable tools that your equine professionals and your vets could use you know it's it's very valuable information yeah So I think it really comes down to a lot of times is the critical thinking.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:30-00:34:25]
It's this idea that we're not going to just blanket statement things. We're not going to just blindly trust. We're not going to make assumptions, you know, all of those different things. It is really practicing critical thinking. And it's like, just because this is the way it's always been done or just because this is how my horse normally is or, you know, something like that, just being able to kind of say, well, is this Like, could it have changed? Is that the truth? Like, you know, like all of those different things. And I know for myself, like going through a bit of my own health journey as well, it's like, don't just assume the little things aren't aren't actually big things. You know, like that was always a really big thing as well. It's like, oh, just because it's like it's not really that big of a deal. Like, you know, like that's not it's it's fine. You know, it doesn't mean that it's not actually a big thing or could later on lead to something much bigger because it was dismissed in the beginning.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:26-00:35:30]
Yeah. And that we know we know that for a fact with horses. Right. We know that they're really good at hiding things and that lameness is when they start getting visible because it's almost too late. Right. Like when they start actually being lame, then the problem has been going on for a really long time. So let's say and I don't want to make everybody super paranoid, but like when you're riding a horse and it starts swishing its tail. Ask yourself, does my horse always swish their tail? Like, is this maybe something that I should be looking at? Maybe I should give, you know, a week off and see, does it come back, you know, or does it go away and then does it come back type thing? And so that's really important what you're saying about the little things is usually it is the little things that matter. that causes a lot of trouble and costs us a lot of money in the long run. And so, and again, it comes again, it comes down to knowing your horse. Like when your horse starts diverging from their, from their baseline, you know, like you have to be able to act quickly and make sure that your horse is comfortable and, you know, put the finger on it as fast as possible.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:33-00:35:38]
What areas of equine research are most exciting to you right now? I'd love to know.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:39-00:37:30]
Um, anything that's like biomechanics right now is really getting a lot of traction in terms of new technology, which is really cool because, you know, like, and there's a lot of research on lameness recognition and objective observation on lameness. And, you know, it's very subjective in the sense that, You could have 100 vets in a room and they're all not going to see the same thing. And it's normal. It's super, super, super hard to recognize asymmetry or any type of flaw in locomotion that can maybe mean your horse is going towards lameness, right? And so I think that technology is going to be really, really exciting for this because we're going to have a more objective view on asymmetry and dysfunction in biomechanics, which is super, super helpful for early recognition of lameness. Another thing that I'm really excited about is more in the realm of behavior, but pain signals, which is also super, super, super important to understand. I think that that's something that, you know, going back to. The traditional kind of approach to equestrianism, I think that behavioral science and pain recognition is something that we've always dismissed as being, you know, naughty or whatever, whatever. But I think that... Having more research on it and being able to make the link between certain types of behaviors and pain is a gigantic step forward to taking action to make horses more comfortable and just making horseback riding a more ethical sport.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:33-00:39:24]
biomechanics and pain signals it seems like suddenly everybody's talking about it like you know everybody's talking about um you know posture confirmation biomechanics um you know, different, like, um, like you said, like the pain signals, all of those different things. And, um, it kind of reminds me of the ulcer conversation where it was like, suddenly back in like the early two thousands, it seemed like everybody started talking about ulcers, you know, and like, and so on from there. And suddenly this thing that was never really a thing said, you know, became so many words about ulcers, like everybody's treating for ulcers. Um, And it became so much more prevalent as to the point today where it's just just kind of common knowledge. And I'm noticing this trend over the past, you know, probably like five plus years as well of, you know, biomechanics and then now even more so pain, pain symptoms and pain signals. And there's kind of two things with one, like you had said, is that more and more research is actually being done on it. It doesn't mean that these things didn't exist before. It's just that there's now more research on it and there's more people talking about it. And the other thing, too, is do we. Or I'll say, do I kind of wonder, and maybe do you also kind of wonder, is it a way that we're keeping horses? Is it a way that we're riding horses? Is it something that has changed in their lifestyle and their exercise that is also making these things become more prevalent as well in comparison to what they were before? Is it chicken or the egg? Which one could it be that it's just more common knowledge or... that it's just happening more and more?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:25-00:42:19]
That's an interesting question. I could only answer with my personal opinion on this one. I think that one thing leads to another. This is how I see it in my brain. Someone could have a different understanding of what's going on right now, but I think that... People want to get more to the root of the problem. Right. And so when you have these trends of people like talking about, you know, arthritis or ulcers or ECVM right now, that's really big. There's a lot of research on ECVM at the moment. You know, kissing spines was something so like largely talked about in the past years. And so I think that. Throughout all of these pathologies that we're learning more about that, as you said, has probably existed forever, we're just right in the middle. Now kind of focusing on them and learning more about them and and educating people more about these problems. But I think that now we're more interested in or rather in parallel to all that we're interested in knowing the root cause of it. And I think that the only way is to recognize when a horse has this problem where pain signals comes in. So behavioral science comes in. And then biomechanics is, you know, recognition of these pathologies. And I think that biomechanics is something that's really, really, really important to understand. Unfortunately, it's also super complicated to understand. Like, it's not simple to be good at biomechanics because it's something that's very intricate because of the fact that they're quadrupeds. And so, you know, it's... Something that's very true, but I mean, you can learn this and what it allows you to do is to figure out how. I guess I don't want to say normal because what is normal, but kind of like what. Is your horse moving in a way that is going to be detrimental in the long term? Is your horse moving in a way that's compensating for something? Is your horse moving in a way that signals, you know, underlying issues? And so I think that just from learning that it kind of gives you a precursor to all kind of evaluating the rest of it. It's because there's a lot of things I think that from biomechanics you could identify early on. And I think that that is an actual like very real desire for scientists now or vets at the moment is, you know, how do we recognize these problems as early as possible? And that's by listening to your how your horse communicates and observing how your horse moves, basically.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:42:20-00:43:48]
The other question that comes to mind, again, I'm putting on my horse owner lens through this conversation, is... this idea that we are now more than ever, the, you know, the average horse owner is now more than ever informed, whether it is from being able to read articles, read studies, follow, you know, people on social media, all of those different things, you know, work with more, like have more resources. You have more professionals in the area and things like that. And the majority of people do. So we all are feeling, you know, resourced and informed to an extent. And sometimes all of that information, you use the word paranoia earlier, or like paranoid, some of that information can grab hold of the fun and the, you know, the things like that, that once drew us to horses. And suddenly we are overanalyzing and we are overthinking and And we're, you know, all of these different things that is sometimes not as good for not only our, you know, mental health and enjoyment within this industry, but also it's not as good for our horses because we're like leeching on them with like our overthinking lenses. Maybe I'm projecting. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:53-00:43:57]
Oh, I'm with you on this a hundred percent.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:57-00:44:30]
So it's like finding this balance now between feeling like we're, or being very informed and doing the best that we can for our horses and still coming to this hobby, this lifestyle, this sport with this fun and enjoyment that we, that brought us there in the first place. And maybe this is, you know, something that you have an answer for. Maybe you're like, I don't know, but do you like, is there anything that comes to mind for you for having the ability to find this balance?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:31-00:46:56]
Yes. Um, I do have an answer for that. I grapple with this a lot. Um, and I absolutely recognize myself and everything that you just said. Um, I think that it all comes down to managing your expectations. And I think that whatever, um, the amount of paranoia that you need to have towards your horse's wellbeing is directly proportional to what you expect your horse to do for you. And what I mean by that is if you want your horse to be a meter 60 horse, then you'll never be paranoid enough. Like you need to make sure that your horse is sound, pain-free, happy doing their job, and in the best conditions possible, specific to their species. And by that, I mean the three or four Fs now that we have, right? So I don't remember what the last F is, but I know that they added one. So it's forage, friends, and freedom, right? So if, let's say, sort of like me, and I'll give, and I think it's pretty much the same with soda, but with Nova, I know that She has limitations at the moment that will or will not get better. Who knows? Time will tell. But right now she's a five-year-old green broke pasture bunny, like literally. And how she's feeling in that day dictates what we do. And I think that it's really important to remember that where, you know, if your horse is... If your horse has limitations but can be, let's say, you know, in comfortable in the paddock or to be like a trail horse or a pleasure horse or, you know, something that doesn't require top like top optimal athletic form. then you can calm yourself and calm your brain and just be like, what is it that I need for this horse to be just comfortable doing this? But if you do have a top athlete, then yes, you should be always, always thinking about, you know, doing what's best for the horse and making sure that you're able to recognize the level of comfort that your horse is in.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:58-00:47:06]
When you bought Nova, did you purchase her knowing that she had some of the pathologies that she had or was it a surprise to you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:07-00:48:32]
No, she actually had an accident. So she fell on ice. She went bucking full speed on ice. And here in Quebec, we have a lot of that. And so she slip fell on her side and ended up having chronic inflammation and contraction of the multifidi. which, you know, squeezed her vertebrae together in the lumbar area. And she started having calcification of the transverse processes in the lumbar area. And it went undiagnosed for a really, really long time. And that's kind of what... you know, made it progress that far if it was caught earlier on. And, you know, that again, that's, you know, what I was saying at the beginning is why I'm like so deep into equine science now is because it took two or three years, five vets to figure out what was going on. And everybody was just telling me to keep working her and everything will, you know, she's going to grow, she'll be fine, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, because it went undiagnosed for so long, now we're at a critical point where we don't know if she's going to get better. And yeah, so time will tell where that's going to go. But that's like, you know, the importance of sticking to your intuition and, you know, pushing harder according to what you know on your horse. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:34-00:49:23]
So first of all, I love exactly what you said about, um, like you said, like whatever it is that you are planning to do with your horse is like working within that for how you approach, um, Them and their health and their well-being and, you know, your activity with them. And so I would love to know. I know my answer for this and, you know, what my experience was with my own horse. But I would love to know yours is how did you... How did you sort of deal with or manage the change, knowing, okay, my horse isn't going to do what it is that maybe I had hoped for them to do when I originally purchased them or they came into my life?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:23-00:52:26]
Yeah. It was really, really hard. But I remember my boyfriend asking me at one point and he says, if you're never able, because she's my only horse, right? I have one. It's her. That's it. Everything rests on her shoulders. And I remember my boyfriend asking me, if tomorrow morning your vet tells you that this horse will never be written, what are you going to do? And that really forced me to kind of reflect on exactly that question, right? Am I able to manage my expectations on what it is that I could do with her now? And I kind of came to terms with the fact that it's absolutely unknown what we're going to do right what she's going to end up doing and to what extent she's she's going to be able to work or you know even if she's going to become 100% comfortable at one point in her life right but I kind of and through that I kind of fell in love with the process right and I know it's not going to be the same thing with everybody and Maybe not with you either, but I think that I kind of fell in love with that rehab process, with groundwork, with, you know, I work with BTMM a lot. And I think that I kind of fell in love with the process of making my horse stronger to a point where I haven't written in years. two years and I don't miss it at all and at the beginning I remember being very very very frustrated um you know and selling her was never an option I just you know just it doesn't it's not part of my DNA I think selling was never on the table um but yeah it's kind of you have to um you know, go through the process of grieving your, your sports goals that you have with that horse and finding, I think something else that you could bond over with your horse. And I think that's what I found. And I kind of really fell in love with that process. And for me, it's, and I, for now, this is what the deal is. Maybe it'll change in a couple of years, but for now I'm very, happy with what she's able to give me at the moment. Uh, but it was a huge process for me. And, you know, I, I was in a super, you know, super competitive hunter jumper barn and, um, you know, that's kind of what I've always imagined myself doing with her. And, um, you know, my understanding of equestrianism has changed a lot through the whole process of going through that scientific, you know, critical thinking kind of part of it. And, um, For me, riding a horse is not as attractive as it used to be, and I just found a lot of pleasure doing other stuff with her. All that being said, it could change. I could, in five years, wake up and say, I really miss riding and buy another horse. I don't know. Who knows?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:27-00:54:09]
Hmm. Yeah. It's, uh, it was, it was a process for sure. Yeah. Like you said, like having grieving is a really good word to describe it because it is, it's one of those things where I certainly don't want to compare it to like, like the grief of, um, like losing a loved one or something. Um, because obviously, you know, our, our horses are still here with us, but it's the, the grief of, um, a hope the grief of um you know maybe like a vision that we had and and really having to shift those things um and i think that there's um there's a lot to that that you know many people don't quite understand when you know it's like well i'm it just, it is what it is, get on with it, you know, or whatever. But also too, this, this idea of our industry, our, you know, this horse industry, the Way that horses are seen as so replaceable. And I know for myself, when my mare was going through everything, so I got her when she was four and it really took us until we were, until she was about eight for us to kind of understand what was even going on. And at that point, you know, me deciding to put her into what I thought was full retirement at that time. At this point, it's like, I'll get on and we'll, walk around bareback, you know, or like, you know, you know, kind of get on and we'll bebop around. Um, I saw a reel the other day and it was like me and my horse and it was, um, Timon and Pumbaa and Timon was riding Pumbaa and they were singing Hakuna Matata together. And I was like, that's literally me and my horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:09-00:54:10]
It's

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:16-00:57:25]
The thing that I... It was a really big shock for me because I grew up very much in the horse industry where if you grew a pony, you sold it. If you were going off to school or, you know, you were changing your career and life was getting busy, you sold the horse. If... You grew the horse's capabilities. So like, let's say you're going to move up in a level and the horse, it just wasn't able to do it. You sold the horse or vice versa. The horse was, um, It just it wasn't what you wanted it to be. You sold it. Like it just it was one of those things where they just kind of seemed like this revolving door. And I never really thought anything of it, which is very sad to admit. And when Soda started really having a lot of her issues that were both physical and behavioral issues. Um, the amount of people that said like, or like, are you just going to get rid of her? Cause not in a way of like a judgment, almost in a way of like, obviously like, you know, just get rid of the horse, um, sell her while you still can was a word that I heard or, um, you're not going to be able to sell her. So just give her away. Um, like it was very, um, yeah, I was really, really grossed out. Um, And perhaps it was because previously when I had sold horses, it was because, like I had said, life changes going to, you know, going away to school, you know, something like that. So it didn't seem like the horse is the problem. It was just, it was what it was. Whereas in this case, it was the horse is the problem. Her worth is no longer what we thought it was. And that was, It really shifted something in me as a woman, as a human being is recognizing the inherent worth in these animals, that if they are not going to do what we as humans expected them to want to do, we still have the responsibility to care for them to the best of our abilities and to keep maintain their quality of life, whether that is living in a pasture or whether that is riding lightly or, you know, whatever it may be. So I love that you are doing that. the best that you can for Nova and that she just is so lucky to have found you and you to have found her. I feel very much the same way of my Mayor Soda and I, like she has changed my entire life. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't do anything differently other than make her more comfortable, you know, or like have found it faster. But I just, I'm so glad for people like you in this industry that is an advocate for the horse, but also an advocate for the horse owner to say, hey, here's how we can do better. Here's this research. Here's this, you know, these things that I'm finding. Here's how you can be more informed to not only help yourself, but help your horse as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:27-00:59:08]
yeah and I think that throughout all of this and kind of as I was explaining at the beginning is Nova has been my greatest teacher um you know she I wouldn't be where I am at the moment if it wasn't for her and so I feel like I owe her so much and there's kind of like that you know that guilt of no I guilt is a strong word but I feel like this responsibility you know to um give her everything I can reflective of what she taught me. So I'm taking all the lessons that she forced me to get and I'm just like full force throwing it back at her. And, you know, like she she's a really special horse. And I don't know, I just couldn't I couldn't imagine her not being with me. anymore. And, uh, I had those same comments from a lot of people, you know, like just sell her. And first of all, like selling a lame horse, it's just, that's terrible. It's just, I, you know, what's going to happen to that horse after, you know, like who knows? Um, so it's just, yeah, no, exactly. I feel like I, I see a lot of, uh, myself and Nova in, in you and Soda and I think that's, you know, why I like, I love your podcast so much is that throughout all your conversations, you know, talk about your experiences and I kind of, you know, reflects a lot on what I'm experiencing at the moment. And I find that really fun to, you know, grow through these experiences through someone else that has something that's very similar to me. And I learned a lot from it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:09-00:59:44]
Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I, I, I hope that, you know, not only with this podcast, but also with your podcast as well. It is really, you know, being that, you know, I kind of call it being the advocate for the horse owner as well. You know, we very much advocate for the horses, of course. But I also kind of feel a little bit of a, I don't know, some sort of like a duty, which is a weird word to say, like, because obviously... I don't have a duty to it, but like, you know, like almost like I, I went through this, so I don't want anybody else to. Right. This really sucked for me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:59:44-00:59:46]
Yeah. Learn from my mistakes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:46-01:00:06]
Yeah. I don't want anyone else to go through it as well. And so, yeah, it is almost like being that advocate for the horse owner too, to say like, here are some things like, I hope you learn from this. Here's this professional learn from here's this, you know, this educational resource, things like that. And that's why I just, I love your page so much.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:00:07-01:00:08]
Thank you. That's so nice.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:00:09-01:00:20]
I've been asking everybody this question really for a couple of years now. And so I'd love to hear your answer on it as well is what is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:00:20-01:02:57]
Yeah. So I if there's one thing that I really love. OK, so I'm going to get canceled for saying this, but I think that the root of all our problems is that it's a competitive sport. Right. Like unless we're able to do it in a more responsible and more ethical way. Honestly, I think we don't deserve to use horses in sports. And I know this is a big claim and I'm not saying like I want all equestrian sports to go away because that comes with its own set of problems where You know, how many millions of horses are going to be thrown to slaughter if we do that, right? But I think that there's, you know, a huge risk in continuing how we are now from many different perspectives. Um, and so I just, I really hope that people kind of wake up and start asking the hard questions, right. Um, and, you know, just look inside themselves and at their value sets and how they treat their horses on a daily basis. Does that correspond to, uh, you know, something that we want to be, that we want to be, um, you know, seen doing through the lens of like the entire world. Right. And I think that equestrian sports are not the only ones that are like that. You know, I think there's a lot of sports that are pretty hardcore for the body, for humans and, you know, for young athletes and lead to a lot of physical damage, a lot of psychological damage. Equestrian sports are far from being the only ones that need to be restructured and rethought. But I think that the fact that we have so much responsibility towards these live animals that don't have a choice in what they're doing, it kind of heightens the stakes a little bit. And so just I really hope that equestrians start, you know, really start asking the hard questions. And I'm optimistic because I do feel a shift. I do feel the change. I think that there's a lot of, you know, top athletes that are starting to ask those questions and change how they train, how they manage their horses. But, you know, just the fact that there's a lot of money at stake and a lot of, you know, sponsorships that are at stake and it just makes it very, very hard. So, yeah, I hope that we find a way to shift that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:02:58-01:03:32]
Hmm. I have a feeling there's going to be more people agreeing with you than canceling you for saying that. I echo your sentiment completely. I completely agree. We have four rapid fire questions that we ask all of our podcast guests. I probably should add that question to it because, like I said, I feel like I've been asking everybody that. But it's not really a rapid fire answer. So here's our rapid fire ones. It's just like the first thing that comes to mind. The first one is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:32-01:03:57]
Yeah. The better you know, the better you do. I think that the more you learn about something, the less you could stay ignorant and close your eyes. Right. So the more you become educated about horses or species specific needs of your horses or, you know, any other topic that surrounds equine management, you know, the better you'll do and the happier your horse is going to be.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:58-01:04:03]
Love it. The second one, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:05-01:04:54]
It's a weird answer because he's absolutely not in the horse world, but I have to say my boyfriend because... He's also a scientist and a brilliant one at that. And he really keeps me honest and keeps my scientific integrity in check and keeps my ego far, far away. And he has no stake in the game. So when he reviews my stuff, he's really able to be like, yeah, but is this... He questions the integrity of everything that I post, so it makes it a lot more factual and more reliable. So I think that he has a big part in keeping me honest about everything that I do around horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:56-01:05:19]
I love it good horse boyfriends horse partners horse husbands you know all of those things are just a dime a dozen and honestly like life as an equestrian would be so challenging without them so I'm glad that you have that support oh for sure the third one um if you could give equestrians one piece of advice what would it be ask questions Never stop asking questions.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:05:19-01:05:46]
Document everything. You know, just keep a little journal in your in your in your locker. And as soon as you're done with your horse, just spend like three minutes just jotting down your observations. And yeah, just like don't I don't you know, I don't mean like always questioning your your professionals, but just ask questions like just just try to get as much information and answers as you can.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:05:48-01:05:52]
And the last one, please complete the sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:05:55-01:06:37]
For me, horses are a huge, huge, huge responsibility. I think that everybody needs to keep themselves accountable for their horse's well-being. I think that horse ownership... has to be taken seriously without becoming paranoid to a point of, you know, affecting your mental health. But I think that horses are a huge responsibility just by the fact that they depend on us so highly for their well-being. And so you have to treat it as such and be very vigilant. Always listen to your horse. And yeah, just treat it like the most valuable thing you have in your life, always.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:37-01:07:52]
I have been asking that question. I've been doing this podcast now since the summer of 2022. And I've asked that question to a lot of people. And yeah. Most times that answer, it's a really, really beautiful response. And I always love the responses that everybody has. They're always really beautiful. But that response was in my top two favorite. The other one was, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm forgetting her name. But she had said, for me, horses are trying their best. And it just like... It just broke my heart and also filled it at the same time. And then by yours, I love that you said that. To say horses are a huge responsibility is such an important statement to make because it's like a weight that... we must be willing to carry if we're going to do this. You know what I mean? Like it's one of those things where it's like, it is not to be taken lightly. It is not to be, like I mentioned earlier, discarded. I just, I really, really liked your response to that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:52-01:08:17]
Thank you. No, I feel like, I feel like what we ask of them is so unnatural in an anatomical point of view that that we have the responsibility to prepare them for whatever it is that we're asking of them. And so, yeah, it's huge. It's huge. It's very serious being in a question. I don't think people realize how much.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:20-01:08:33]
Please pitch yourself. Please share all of the things. How can people find you? You know, where can they connect with you and see your work? And we'll link it all in the show notes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:34-01:09:14]
Sure. So my podcast is the EquiScience podcast. You could get it on Spotify, iTunes, all that stuff. My Instagram is the data driven equestrian. I'm on like a small social media hiatus at the moment because I have so many other projects going on. But there's a lot of information on that page already if you want to pinch it. But I will be coming back, I promise. And that's about it. That's all I do at the moment. But new things are coming. A lot of new things are coming and everything is going to be announced on my Instagram. So stay tuned.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:14-01:09:50]
Awesome. So we'll put the Instagram and also the podcast in the show notes. I highly recommend for our listeners to check in to both. Very informative. And like I said, as whether you're an equine professional or an adult amateur, you're going to find something in there for yourself. So highly recommend checking it out. Thank you, Elisa, so much for being here with us today. I really, really enjoyed not only our conversation, but also getting to like officially like, quote, meet you via the video chat. So thanks for coming on.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:50-01:09:52]
Thanks so much for having me. This was a lot of fun.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:54-01:10:27]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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