#108 Indigenous Horsemanship with Ellie Pukehika

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:01-00:00:08]
In this episode, we're talking with Ellie Pukahika, a horse trainer and founder of the new Atlas Massager.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:09-00:00:51]
And I just sort of believe like we're all indigenous to somewhere. And what I think is beautiful is across different indigenous cultures around the world, we see these common threads and these common stories. Maybe for each person, like if they have that little spark and that seed planted to go on their own journey, looking back into where they come from, to be able to guide them and maybe some of the practices from their cultures and then those universal laws as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:52-00:02:09]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Kroll and I'm your host. Ellie Pukahika is an accomplished horse trainer based in Rotorua, New Zealand. She brings together her knowledge from the English disciplines of show jumping and dressage, as well as horsemanship, to merge the art of working with the horse and understanding the psychology of how they think and learn. Ellie has been a clinician at the 2018 Equidays, as well as the 2020 and 2022 Equifest. These days, Ellie focuses on teaching women how to start their own horses with partnership instead of four. And she's also the creator of the Atlas Massager, a pole, TMJ, and hyoid massager for horses using vibrational massage therapy. She's also the host of Rungwa, a podcast on indigenous horsemanship. We'll be talking about all the things she's up to and how she got here, including the launch of the new Atlas massager. So let's dive in. Ellie, welcome to the We Horse podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you today. There's a little bit of history that we have now. It's not just like a brand new guest. And I'm so excited to welcome you not only as a guest, but also as like my new friend.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:10-00:02:19]
Kia ora, Danielle. Thank you so much for having me on today. And yes, I am so grateful to have met you and hit it off.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:21-00:02:41]
Yeah, I could have gone sideways. All right. So our first one, I always like to kind of go back to the very beginning. And I'd love to know just your history with horses. So if you can give us some insight into your history, how you got started, and then also how you got to where you are today.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:42-00:07:48]
Yeah, sure thing. Wow. So I think traveling right back, I grew up in a family where we didn't have horses right on our doorstep, but we had horses in our whānau. in our family. And mum and dad said that right from a baby, I was just horse mad. I would try and sit on the dogs and hold their ears as reins. And so it was no wonder that every holidays when we went over to my dad's family, They had a Clydesdale cross and he was the family horse. So here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, in our culture, it's quite common to have horses as hunting horses. So pig hunting or deer hunting. And because that was a means of going out to get food to bring back to feed the family. And so these horses were just real family horses. They were a part of the family, like really in the backyard. And all the kids could ride them. It was pretty common to have like two, three, four kids on a big horse's back. And so that was my introduction to horses right from little, little. And as I grew, like obviously in the beginning, it was doubling with my dad or somebody else or my granddad leading me. And over the years, I can remember like some of my best memories are on this big cloud style bin. And I would go up and down the dirt road. And then as I kind of grew and got better, I sort of like grew. to being able to go further. And then I was able to go down and there was this big watermelon field out behind the farm and I loved cantering him through that. And it was like just a Hessian sack, like a potato sack for a saddle. And sometimes I would have like a baling twine bridle and reins, you know, the baling twine from hay bales. And so it was just the best. And from there... My love for horses didn't stop and by the time I was six I'd managed to talk mum and dad into riding lessons and then that sort of graduated to pony club and by the time I was I think I was 10 or 11 I got my first pony and I'm really happy that mum and dad went about it in that way of kind of me showing my love and commitment for it before they just sort of handed everything to me because I think it set me up for One, to have gratitude for being able to ride, but also that I had to put in that work. Yeah, so that was neat. And then, of course, I went down the path of... Competition and show jumping was my thing back then. I was a bit of a daredevil and I loved that. We backed on to some big farms and my goal in life was to see how many gates I could jump and how many fences I could jump and see how far I could get over these neighbouring farms. My poor sister, she did not have the same desires in life and quite often when her and I were out together, she was like... Riding behind, like holding on for dear life, not wanting to jump these fences, but having no choice in the matter either. Yeah, and just a beautiful, beautiful life as a child growing up with horses, which I think is a fairly common one for... Kids here in Aotearoa, especially in small towns where we packed our lunch packs and got on our horses and rode all day in the school holidays. And then I think in my teens, I started to... Noticed that I had like a an affinity with horses that were young or maybe that they had some troubles and I really enjoyed the process of working with them and building trust and I guess one thing sort of led to the next and then in my early 20s, I started to look at horse training as a career. Yeah, so that was a really neat journey in itself. And I can tell the story of how that came about and happened.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:07:48-00:07:50]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, please.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:50-00:13:29]
Yeah. So I had actually taken a little break from horses a year. I had come off my show jumping horse. We had flipped through a jump and I broke my neck. And I thought that was the end of my riding career. And... After about a year of crying every time my then two and a half year old would watch racing stripes, I was like, this is ridiculous. I'm crying over a zebra. And so I set about finding a new horse to come into my life. And that was when I found this young warm-blooded mare. And when I arrived to go and see her, she was skinny, like her hips were sticking out, her ribs were sticking out. And I could tell she was a really sweet girl, but she had had... That old way of really breaking a horse in. And it was an old farmer. that had bred her and her siblings and um and I think I felt sorry for her more than anything and so she definitely came home and so with her I did as much as I could with the knowledge and skills that I had of a young person that was pretty much just winging it and also brought up through the pony club system and a real Yeah, I guess a traditional way of working with horses. And one day I had got her to the point she was really anxious about being touched around her face and her ears, her neck. You couldn't get a bridle on her. And I believe she had been air twitched to, you know, have control. So there was a lot of fear there. And I had definitely made progress, but it always felt like... Two steps forward and four steps back. And this one day I was working with her and I had sort of got the bridle on and I thought things were going really good. And then she just panicked and threw her head and the bridle went throwing, went flying. And I was just so frustrated. It was like that breaking point. And I punched her in the neck. And like in that moment, I just felt. out awful and I looked at her and I swear I could see tears in her eyes and I so I'm so dramatic but I dropped to my knees and I was like sobbing and I said to her I'm so sorry and I put out a prayer for something to come along because I so wanted to be able to help her and I knew that I was at my limit there and I just wanted to make her feel better about being in a relationship. And so I think it was one of those moments where my prayers were answered because it was only a couple of weeks later that I had seen a post pop up on social media and it was with Dr. Andrew McLean. And he was coming to Aotearoa for our first ever equine festival. And he was looking for a guinea pig type of horse that he could demonstrate working with, especially with problems, issues. And so I thought, well, that's us. We're definitely having some of those. And so I put my hand up and we were accepted. And so that was the moment that everything just started to... snowball and it was the first time that I had learnt about how horses think and learn and I guess the psychology behind it not just not just being brave and being on there and relying on I think some natural skills and affinity with horses. So yeah, that was the beginning of seeing that and then just really falling in love with the process and the work of being able to work with horses and help them. So, yeah, of course, like one thing leads to the next and all these people start popping up in my life, different mentors and different horses. And I think a few months later, I then went to Australia and spent a little bit of time. Learning and watching some really great horsemen over there and I came home and at that time I was actually halfway through a business and marketing degree and I thought I've always 12 year old me has always wanted to work with horses and um and I think I can do that too so I dropped out of my degree and went all in on working with horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:13:30-00:14:08]
Oh, I love this all so much. I also love like the vulnerability of you sharing that breakdown moment for the breakthrough moment. Because a lot of times we don't necessarily talk about that part of things and it's so needed. And I love, I loved everything that you shared from the beautiful childhood to, you know, how you, how you got into the horse training now. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you now specialize in young horses. Is that correct?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:14:08-00:14:13]
Yeah, that definitely sort of was the path that I went down.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:14:14-00:14:56]
Yeah, absolutely. And now the other thing, too, is I remember talking to you previously. And of course, you could be like, no, that, you know, that's not whatever. But you were saying about how the. The way that you experienced horses when you were young, again, going back to that like potato bag, you know, the sack on their back and the Baylor twine bridle and the simplicity of starting the horse from a really mammal to mammal connection and how you're weaving that into the way that you're starting horses now. Does that ring true or is that still true for you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:14:56-00:16:29]
Yeah, it definitely is. It feels like. one of those full circle moments of not realising back then just the gift it was to have had that beginning of, like you say, mammal to mammal and really figuring out, I think tapping into... As I've been working with horses, I think we have the mind and the body. And then later I've come, especially through my journey now, we have that element of the spirit or... Here in Te Ao Māori, we call it wairua. And I think that was the side that I had really developed when I was a child. Because I wasn't taught the mental side of things. I wasn't taught the physical side of things. I was just on there connecting. And it's in a lot of the conversations that I've been having lately in our indigenous community, horsemanship talks is this feeling of like the avatar moment of plugging in and for our people I think that's something that we have such a connection to so now in my work really focusing on that piece of it is being wairua led spirit led as I'm working with the horses and that's such a beautiful journey yes

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:30-00:16:39]
Absolutely. Can we talk a little bit about that, about Indigenous horsemanship and what that means or more specifically what that means to you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:39-00:18:41]
Yeah, definitely. Well, I think this is a thing that I've just started exploring over the last few years as I've gone on my own journey of reconnecting or connecting to my culture. Because, of course, through decolonization, we were really disconnected and not brought up in that world at all. So as I've been on that journey for myself, I couldn't help but bring that into my experience with horses and starting to look at, well, what would have it looked like or what could have it looked like if horses were here in Aotearoa pre- colonization, how might have our ancestors trained and worked with them? Because oftentimes, and I guess being a horse trainer and just being in the horse world, we've all seen some not very nice ways of working with horses. And so I started to think, is the way that we see that real, like, rough and dominance and control way of working with horses, is that a symptom of colonisation? Is that working through a trauma lens? And for me, I don't think that is an indigenous way of working with the animals, with any animals. And so I guess that's led me on this journey of understanding different parts of our culture to bring through and then inform the way that I work and show up with the horses. And yeah, for me... What was your exact question again there before I go off on a tangent? Totally.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:41-00:18:45]
Just a simple one. Just what does an indigenous horsemanship mean to you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:18:48-00:20:47]
Yeah, I think that for me that means looking at... The whole, the connection to everything. I think one thing that I've really learned through my journey is that nothing is separate. There's this interconnectedness and this symbiotic relationship between the human, between the horse, between the land, between... We talk a lot about whakapapa, about ancestry, and not just back three, four generations. We talk about ancestry that goes right back to the beginning of time. told through names and stories and for me what I found is when I have these things in mind especially that our earth and our animals and trees and the water they're our tuakana so they're our elders and when we think of them as our elders then it kind of has like that element of lifting them up and respecting and you're thinking about the past and the present and the future Because if we don't hold all of that in mind, then I think that's when we stop caring about the way we show up today in the present because that's all that is in front of us. And I think that's where we run into issues with... You know, things that are being done in the world today. So yeah, really holding that in mind, that interconnectedness and how can we be better guardians of our horses and the land that they are on? Because when those things are well, then we are well and the horses are well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:20:48-00:21:42]
Yeah, absolutely. I hear when I listen to you speak about that, the word that comes to mind to me goes beyond respect and goes to reverence. And just like that deep reverence. of life, essentially, you know, whether it is human or animal or nature, you know, which essentially we all are. But it's, it's such a beautiful way of looking at things. And it's also just such a necessary way of looking at things. Like you'd said, it's like, you know, Perhaps if more people had more of that outlook, we wouldn't have gotten ourselves to where we are today in some cases. And that's not to say that all is lost because we can, of course, begin to adopt that outlook for the things that are around us.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:42-00:22:58]
Yes, definitely. I think there's so, as I dive into this concept and this idea of Indigenous horsemanship, I think there's so many answers within that to solve a lot of the issues that we are having. And how can we... Return to those ways of being. Yeah, which I think looks the same in many cultures and places. And I just sort of believe like we're all Indigenous to somewhere. And what I think is beautiful is across different indigenous cultures around the world we see these common threads and these common stories and maybe for each person like if they They have that little spark and that seed planted to go on their own journey, looking back into where they come from to be able to guide them and maybe some of the practices. From their cultures and then those universal laws as well. Yeah, it's just such a beautiful journey.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:59-00:24:18]
Absolutely. It's funny, my husband and I, shortly after the holidays this winter, We each got a subscription to, it's called like Ancestry. I think, well, over here it's Ancestry.ca in Canada, but I think it's kind of a universal website. And I had known that my great, great grandparents came over from Norway. They, you know, took a boat from Norway to New York and then from New York to Ontario. And that's why we're here in Canada. And and it was really interesting because my husband began to. So I began studying the Norwegian language and my husband, he's like. He loves to cook and he started incorporating some Norwegian meals into, you know, some of our suppers and stuff like that. And it's just a simple little things that you do begin to connect a little bit more to, you know, like what was. Like what would my. my great great grandparents have been eating you know when they were kids and like things like that and it's just it's it's really simple and um but it also just felt really fulfilling and and like heartfelt um So yeah, it's just a nice thing for everybody to do in some cases.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:18-00:24:47]
That's so beautiful. I love, thank you for sharing that. And it's so true, isn't it? It can be just those simple little things. It doesn't have to be. This big journey or this big event, it can just be as simple as, yeah, the language and the food. And that's so rich. And it can be really deep when you dive into those things. You can definitely go down some good rabbit holes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:48-00:25:08]
Yeah, absolutely. I would love to discuss your podcast as well. So you have a podcast that speaks specifically to the indigenous horsemanship from, and please, please, please correct my pronunciation here. More?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:09-00:25:15]
Good try. That's all right. It's Maori.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:16-00:25:35]
Maori. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And so can we talk a little bit about that? Like what, what do you discuss on your podcast? And also what do, you know, listeners who maybe aren't with, and you know that indigenous culture um what can they take from your podcast as well yeah

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:36-00:30:25]
Thank you. I think, firstly, I guess what I hope people take from the podcast, if they are non-Māori, is that it plants a seed in them to go on their own journey. And what that looks like is different, I think, for each person. Even if they are Māori, that can look different. I know just how powerful it was for me when that seed was planted in me. And that was through, I was listening to a podcast with Rupert Isaacson from The Horse Boy. And he was sharing of his journey. Of working with different indigenous tribes and some of the incredible healings that he had witnessed. And something inside me was just, sorry, I just got distracted by some birds outside. So me. I love it. Last spring, at the beginning of spring, sorry, this is such a side tangent, but at the beginning of spring, we have this bird, and it's a migratory bird. It's one of them. native birds called the pepi fararoa and this bird is a tohu a sign that spring is on its way and it's time to plant your kumara your sweet potatoes and you hear them because they have this really distinctive whistle And I had only ever heard them. And this one time I was sitting in a meeting and my desk like looks out over... Our yard and we've got beautiful native trees around and we look out to the lake and so it's this beautiful scene and then I could hear the pipi faroroa and I was like, oh, and then I looked out and it was sitting in this tree right outside my front window. And I was trying so hard to be focused in the meeting, but it was really distracting. And I was like, I just want to like, I want to say. Oh, I'm so sorry. My connection has dropped out. So I could go and see this bird. You have to be like, It's like glitching. And actually, this reminds me, we'll come back to the podcast, but this reminds me of, I was living in Charlotte in North Carolina about, 10 or so years ago. And I, I had talked to this woman and she was a Grand Prix dressage rider. She had a barn full of Grand Prairie horses. And at the time, I was working solely with lots of young horses and quote-unquote problem horses. And I was really craving for riding a horse that was more advanced. And so I said to her, hey, would it be okay if we do an exchange? I'll work with some of your young horses and an exchange for being able to ride some of the advanced horses. Not thinking that she was going to put me on one of her Grand Prix horses the very next time I was out there. And so that was a cool journey itself. One day when I was out there working with these young horses, there was this woman and she was in her late 70s or early 80s. And she had a couple of... Advanced dressage horses, Grand Prix horses at the barn. And she was having a lesson on one of them. And I remember the trainer instructing her to do, I think it was like tempies on the diagonal. And I can remember her riding on this diagonal and then she just stops the horse like midway down the track and she's like, I'm just listening to the birds. And I was like, oh my God, I love this woman. That's so outrageous. You know, like only, only old people that just have like, they're at the point of like, I give no Fs. And I'm going to stop the source and listen to the birds. I love it. Oh my gosh. Am I reaching that? Early onset.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:26-00:30:47]
Yes, absolutely. Oh, I love it. We have like a, so I'm in Nova Scotia. So we have a field guide of Nova Scotia wildlife next to our windows with binoculars. So anytime we see something, we get our binoculars and then we flip through the book to see what it is. So I get it. I get it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:51-00:30:53]
Maybe it's a whole slighty thing. It might be.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:53-00:30:54]
It might be.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:58-00:31:09]
Okay, back to the podcast. Okay, this is one of those moments where I need redirecting.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:09-00:31:30]
Okay, so let's, yeah, so it was about the talking about your podcast. And it was, you know, what somebody, if they're, you know, not within the, you know, yeah, then what they can take away from the conversation. Thank you for guiding me there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:31-00:36:38]
Yeah, yeah, cool. Thank you. Yeah, I guess when I had heard this podcast with Rupert Isaacson talking about his experiences with these Indigenous cultures and their healing modalities, It sparked something inside me. And although he wasn't talking about my culture, it was almost like this little light came on, this remembering. And I wanted to learn more about this because it was pretty phenomenal. And he talked about shape-shifting as well, which is in some of our stories in Te Ao Māori. And I thought to myself, I really want to learn more. But first, I just had this real pull. Before I learn about another culture's healing modalities, I need to learn about my own. And it was kind of like... But why don't I know about this? Why don't I know about our healing? And so that, again, created the snowball of discovering why I didn't know. And a big part of that, one, I guess, was colonisation. Two was the Tohunga Suppression Act, which is where a lot of our healing in our culture was made illegal. as in many countries and cultures around the world. Yeah. So a lot of these things died out or went underground. And when I learned about that, it really broke my heart. But that was sort of the moment that opened the door to... To be able to learn about not just healing, and of course that's our name, Rongoa, the name of the podcast, means healing. And so it kind of felt fitting that that should be the name. Yeah, so that took me on a journey of not only learning about that, but also about... My whakapapa, my ancestry, where I came from, like you as well, learning the language, although I learned that learning a language, especially as an adult, is not an overnight journey. No. No, but a beautiful one. In that as well and also really tough as well it had brought up so much trauma that was stored in in my body and you would know about this because you do somatic work yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah So that was really fascinating to, as I unpacked that, to things come. coming up out of me that I sort of knew this isn't even mine. This is past generations that have had through this loss of language and loss of culture. Yeah, so I guess over that journey, it led to the podcast coming to life. And I wanted to talk to different people, whether they were horse people or non-horse people. In Te Ao Māori, our first season is based around Te Ao Māori. The Māori worldview. And then in future seasons, I am planning on talking with people from other indigenous cultures so that we can, yeah, have that spark and have that plant that seed for people. And like I said before, I think everybody is indigenous to somewhere. So, It's that care being taken around not just extracting from another culture because that's when we get things like cultural misappropriation. And we don't do that. And it's sort of like what you said before, like having that reverence and there's those universal things of, I loved what Rupert Isaacson said to me in a podcast. He said, you know, like we can all go outside and start to notice and observe. and touch a tree and breathe in those smells. Those are the beginning practices of... Indigenizing the way that we are showing up and being um yeah and so talking to yep both horse people and non-horse people because I think sometimes we learn a lot from people who are non-horse people because they don't come with those preconceived ideas of this is the way we've always done it so what can we learn from their practices that can help guide us in the way that we work with horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:39-00:39:07]
Absolutely. Are you feeling inspired to put as much focus on your end of the partnership as your horses? Here at WeHorse.com, we have over 150 courses with top trainers from around the world, covering everything from dressage to starting young horses to jumping and cavaletti training to groundwork and horsemanship. And we also have courses designed to help you become more grounded and present with and without your horse. This includes courses like the Mindful Equestrian and Mat Work for Equestrians with yoga teacher Kathy Woods. Check out WeHorse.com for a free seven-day trial to get started. And as a member, you get access to everything in our WeHorse library to watch whenever you want. And we also have an app, which means you can download a course or video to watch without Wi-Fi. which is perfect for those days at the bar when you just want a quick dose of training inspiration before your ride, or in this case to ground in and feel a little bit more mindful and present before you meet your horse. So what are you waiting for? Go to wehorse.com and check out our free seven day trial to access our WeHorse library. See if it's a good fit for you and start training with our amazing trainers today. We can't wait to see you in there. And now back to the episode. I love your work so much. And one thing I want to say about it is when you say about, you know, how like we're all indigenous to somewhere and like connecting with our own cultures and stuff, which absolutely completely agree with. I think that's so beautiful. And I also want to speak from the lens of a white person and say that white culture was not colonized in the way that others was. And so for people such as yourself to be going back and bringing up the history and the cultural aspects that have been so buried because of, like you said, colonization is not only healing those who are older generations that haven't been able to. Unearth that in themselves, but it's also allowing the younger generations to never have to hide it in the first place. And I think it is so incredibly beautiful, the work that you're doing. I want to commend you. And I just, I just want to, yeah, say that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:08-00:40:31]
Thank you so much, Danielle. I really appreciate your words, your heartfelt words. I can really feel that. And yeah, I, it's a, It's a brave work to speak up on these things. But I think the more I talk about it, the more I hear from others. In the beginning, I thought, oh, this is just little old me and my journey of... Being disconnected and because on my mother's side, she has European ancestry and on my father's side, he has Māori and Irish ancestry. And so you're kind of like holding these two things and and not quite feeling like you fit fully into either world. And so I thought, I suppose that was probably like my child brain of like, I'm the only one that feels this way sort of thing. But as I started to share that journey, I realized that I wasn't alone in that feeling. It has just been really neat to connect with others and all be on this journey together.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:32-00:41:02]
Yeah. You mentioned that as you began to connect with your culture and your heritage, you began to weave that into your horsemanship. But I'm wondering, and you know, you can say, no, absolutely not. But I'm wondering if, um, horses in some way have also helped you connect to the culture, you know, rather than weaving it into your horsemanship, did in some ways your horses help weave that into you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:02-00:45:38]
I definitely think so. It was in one example, I had always had this feeling of I don't know how I know this when I was riding. And as I learned about my ancestors, one in particular, his name is Tiki Parker. He was my great-great-grandfather. Well, he survived the 1886 Tarawera eruption here in Aotearoa. And he did that at just 13 years old, riding his horse away from the eruption. And when I learned about that story, It was kind of one of those moments of like, okay, that's how I... know things because my ancestors have been doing this. It's like my body and my wairua, my spirit, remembers this. And so... When I learned about that, that was actually one of the first things that I started to do was I had this idea of, I wonder if I can ride and retrace his footsteps on my own horse. And so that idea, I didn't even know if I could access the land. I didn't know if it would be possible. And it took me on this three-year journey. My horses did. So I guess that's the piece of like the horses leading me in down that path. And so, yeah, it took a year to bring it all together. And it wasn't... It was sort of like so many elements of reconnecting to the whenua, the land, getting permission to be able to ride on it. It led me to connecting with whānau, so family members that, you know, we're connected through our iwi, our tribe, and to be able to seek permission. And to be able to just connect and hear others'stories as well. So as we connected, then... they would share stories about horses and their family as well and what that had looked like. And so, yeah, a year later, we set out on this ride on our horses, starting at the base of the Maunga, the mountain where the crater had gone down. And we rode around the back of this mountain, up the mountain, and cut across. And it took us three days to get from the start point to over near the coast where he had finished up. And yeah, that was just an incredible journey with the horses. Yes, I would say that that connection with the horses led me deeper into Māori and reconnecting and healing that part. But then I guess also in another way, I think horses offer us, to me, horses... Are right there offering and I think this is why we love horses so much as people because it's like this remembering of what it is like to be in connection with nature as our ancestors all of us no matter where we are in the world as our ancestors were, you know, like horses. are connected to the moon and the stars and the wind and the sunny days and just everything. They're so in the present and in the flow with... Nature and for me when when I'm with the horses it feels like my body and my mind and my nervous system and my spirit is like like I'm back in flow and I'm back in connection with those things that are innate to us that provide us wellness

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:40-00:46:53]
Yeah, it's so interesting because I mean, like horses teach us as individuals, you know, about being present in our bodies, about, you know, even like things like mindset and all of these things like that are really are sort of individual things for each of us to. Work on, I'll say, work on sounds weird, but embody. And then there are also these beautiful herd animals that work in community with one another and have this like incredible sense of communication and leadership and partnership and overall like community. And then also, like you had mentioned, that they are so much driven by nature and the way that they are part of the world. And in, in full spectrum of that, it's like, it's almost like horses teach us about belonging, this full sense of belonging with ourselves, with one another and with nature. And it's just, it's just so beautiful. And whether you realize it or not, your work very much embodies that as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:54-00:46:59]
Yes. Yeah. The belonging and the connection to it all.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:00-00:47:02]
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:47:02-00:47:04]
I really agree.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:04-00:47:33]
Yeah. Is there anything you've had to unlearn as you've gone through this journey? Because I'm just thinking two of our listeners that may be thinking like, there's something here tickling my brain that I want to learn more, that I want to go a little deeper on, you know, on my, you know, my culture, my heritage or begin to learn more about others. Is there anything in particular that you've had to unlearn that might help someone going through their journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:34-00:49:36]
I think for me, a big thing that I had to unlearn was, I guess, caring about what other people thought of. My own individual journey, especially in the horse world where I had developed a career that was very much in like the West. Western, not Western as a discipline, but the Western world of horses. And I think that this can easily, this path can easily look weird or, you know, having that. Being a little bit alienated because you are, you do start to show up differently and do things differently. And, um, I can remember at one point having seen, coming across some people online, um, mocking me about, um, the way that I was being with the horses and I think they said oh something about next she'll be out there singing singing to her horses and you're like yeah I am yeah already doing it yeah already doing it and guess what they love it but I think just arriving at that place where letting go of what other people think and just focusing on your own journey that was a big unlearning for me and just trusting in that You know, when you can let go of those things, there's other people that are standing there with open arms, ready to welcome. welcome you in and to support you and to be standing next to you on that journey as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:38-00:50:14]
I love that. Okay. So changing gears a little bit, I know that you have been working incredibly hard on your new product, um, product called the Atlas massager. I would love for our audience to learn more about it. Um, first of all, if they're not following you in the journey of, um, mate, like getting this to market, um, they need to be. So we're going to of course put your socials in the show notes. But can you tell us what is the Atlas Massager? What's the story behind it? All of the things.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:14-00:55:01]
Yeah, thank you, Danielle. So the Atlas Massager, the whakapapa, the story of this product, My Little Horse Chrome, he, I think in his early years, had been... Taught to tie up a really common but old school way of teaching horses to tie up was tying them up to a big post and letting them fight it out and we know now of course the damage that that does to the really delicate pole and atlas tmj area And for years I had felt he just had this tension and I was always having to work at releasing it through, you know, little exercises while I was riding, through massage. And it was kind of a funny set of events because at the time when it was sort of, I was competing him and we were getting the body worker out a lot and I also had a newborn. And she said to me, it would be really great if you could be massaging it daily. And, you know, with a newborn, I was like, well, that's a really lovely idea. I would love to be able to do that. But most of the time I have a newborn in one arm as I'm throwing gear over my horse with the other. And I thought, I really need a tool that I can pop on to help with this in between having our body worker out. And I couldn't find anything on the market that specifically targeted that area. So I set about making it. And so I made this, just I handmade it and I was using good old baling twine again to tie it onto his halter. And it really made a big difference. I started to notice him feeling a lot more soft and supple and just more comfort overall. And it was also really neat to watch him. while he was having these sessions with it because he would just like go into this dreamy state you know when they get like the real soft mushy eyes and then he would do big yawns and big releases and so I thought well it seems like it is working And I think I just had done a post on my social media, not thinking anything of it. But then all of a sudden I had other people messaging me saying, my horse has those issues too. Can you make us one as well? And so one thing led to the next and I was making these atlases. We came up with the name Atlas because, of course, the Atlas junction. And before I knew it, they were selling in New Zealand, Australia, America, Canada, UK, Mexico. And it was so neat to just hear and see these videos and photos of other people's horses that were experiencing the same as my little horse was. So that's been a really cool journey. And I think especially I woke up one morning to a message from a lady in Switzerland and she had used it with her colicking horse. overnight and she was just so blown away at how it had really helped to settle him through that. Seeing people that have horses that are highly competitive and sometimes with those horses they can also carry a lot of tension and anxiety and hearing things like I've never seen my horse so relaxed before so those were really yeah just heartwarming and and a big why to help us grow and expand Atlas to be able to help more horses. So that's the stage we're at currently is in the process of setting up manufacturing so that we can help more at scale because me in my garage at night time does not really allow me to help horses at scale.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:01-00:55:41]
Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited about this to see it go to market. We've been kind of joking before we started recording about like. Just I'm waiting for this to blow up to be huge and to be the next big thing. So I'm really, really, really excited for you with this. We're going to put the link in the show notes again. If anybody listening is interested, just scroll down. You can find more out about it. All of the things. We have four rapid fire questions that we ask every podcast guest. And it's just kind of the first thing that pops into your head, Ellie. So the first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:42-00:56:27]
Well, I think this one is kind of stolen from my dad, but it's tattooed on my wrist. Look through the jump. This was my non-horsey dad. This was when we were at show jumping events. He would say to us, look through the jump. And my sister and I would be like, oh, rolling our eyes like, dad, you don't even know what you're talking about. And then as I grew up, I realized, actually, that's some pretty good life advice there as well. You know, the obstacle is the way. Absolutely. So it is now tattooed on my wrist where I can forever be reminded of my dad's saying.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:27-00:56:32]
Oh, I love that. The next one is, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:34-00:57:00]
I think that's my granddad. That was sort of where it all began. And I love the way that he set me up with horses. And I really loved when I saw that question. And I thought I've had so many wonderful mentors in my life and teachers. But the one that was kind of jumping out, which I'd never talked about before, was, yeah, it's got to be grand. It did.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:02-00:57:13]
That's so nice. I love that he came through for you to talk about here today. The next one is, if you could give a questioner one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:15-00:57:29]
I think one piece of advice would be getting rid of your watch and getting into time with nature.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:32-00:57:42]
I love that. Also, I mean, could be a bad thing because it seems like the burn is like a time vortex where you're like, I'm just going to be, you know, 30 minutes and then four hours later.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:43-00:57:45]
True, true.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:47-00:57:54]
But I love the sentiment behind it of like going by nature. Absolutely. And then the last one.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:54-00:57:58]
Maybe it's a metaphorical getting rid of your watch.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:58-00:58:09]
If you have somewhere to be, be my foot. Oh, I love it. The last one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:10-00:58:23]
For me, horses are, like I said earlier, just my remembering to bring me back into line with how... we're meant to be as humans, as sentient beings.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:24-00:58:47]
I have loved our conversation so much today, Ellie. There is so much just embodied and embedded and embedded. wisdom within this. I think our listeners are going to take a lot from it. I know I've taken a lot from it and I want everybody to find more out about you. So tell us where can people find you? How can they connect with you? All the things. And again, we're going to put it down in the show notes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:48-00:59:33]
Thank you so much for having me on Danielle. I've really loved this conversation and your beautiful questions as well. It really inspired me to I guess, like, look at the things and be curious about things that I just do every day in my life. How can people find me? I'm pretty much on all of the social media platforms and YouTube and our website for Atlas. It'll be in the show notes. And the podcast as well. That's on all of the podcasting platforms. Awesome. Thank you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:33-01:00:11]
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.