#88 The Impact of the Rider’s Posture and Biomechanics with Katherine Lowry

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:01-00:00:08]
In this episode, we're talking with Katherine Lowry, a biomechanics clinician and founder of Equilibrium Biomechanics.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:09-00:00:48]
I was leading her one day and I kept stopping. I was so fuzzy that I still recall going in my head, damn it, will you just walk? And then I backed up thinking I'll just put her in the emotional regulation box so that she can think about what's going on. And then I stood in my emotional regulation box and I took a few breaths and then I just erupted into tears and I finished. I was like, wow, I feel so much better. And then she took a big breath, licked and chewed and she's like, and now we can walk. So we're walking and this is, I had her out maybe five minutes total, but I'm walking her and I went, that, she just, she just put me in emotional regulation box.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:49-00:01:54]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from Wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. After suffering two traumatic spinal injuries and struggling with stress and anxiety around continuing to lose control of her body, Katherine Lowry decided to take her power back in her life and heal her body from the inside out. Now she uses the same powerful techniques to help others find inner balance and through that balance, peace. Katherine's method for developing rider bodies is aligned with the Balance Through Movement Method, an equine development program to protect and heal the body. We'll be chatting about rider biomechanics, the rider pillars she developed, how your posture can impact your horse not only while riding, but when lunging as well, and so much more. Let's get started. Catherine, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm super excited to finally have you on here. It's been in the making for a little while. You've been on my list since like three years ago. So I'm really excited to have you on and welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:56-00:02:09]
Thank you. I've been very excited to be on. And as I said before we started recording, thank you for giving me some space when we need it due to emergencies, particularly this year. And I'm excited to be here now.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:10-00:02:34]
Absolutely. So we all, of course, have a story, and our guests have a lot of really interesting stories, you included. You have a really inspiring story, and I'd love to start there for our episode. Can you share, like, why, how, all of the things that you decided to take back power in your life and to heal? Like, how did that all come to be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:37-00:08:19]
Thank you. It... always still gets me a bit when I get to hear that my story is inspiring because I know at the time, as many of my clients feel, we're just trying to survive. And so to be able to look back on it and go, oh no, that was heavy and a lot and there was much to overcome. And my why really came down to After my two back injuries, there was, I think, an understandable moment that many of us that have had acute traumatic injuries with horses or have hit a stage in just chronic life wear and tear where we go, is this really something that I want to do? And one of the side effects of my injuries was fear. And it was very strange for me. after my first injury, which was where we broke the transverse process off of L3. And I remember sitting in the saddle when I was finally cleared to do so. I was very good. I did not get on ahead of time. Couldn't have if I wanted to. So, and I sat on our easiest horse and I remember just absolutely freezing for the first time in my life. And I've done some spectacularly extra, might say now if I had a daughter doing it, dumb things that I did with horses and was fine. And I just really had a fear that came with it. And my second injury compounded that. And so I remember sitting very, very strongly. I remember sitting in the breezeway with James, who must have been He was probably four. So we were probably lightly starting him under saddle. And for the first time in my life, I was hiring somebody to come and do rides on him and I was coaching them. And we were getting to the point where I was physically strong enough to start putting some rides on him. And the rides consisted of me sitting on him. I had known him since he hit the ground the entire time and just sitting on him and feeling his Everything in my body going, you're in danger, you're going to die, get off, you can't do this. And having to sit with this horse doesn't deserve this. I think that's a very reasonable thing that most of us think the horse doesn't deserve this. And do I want this? Do I still want to do this? Because I'm going to have to do something different. And I don't even know what that is. But I can't keep doing whatever this is. I can't push through it because I'm physically unable to, which I think was probably the hardest part of my second injury. As I like to tell people, it took me twice to learn this. You shouldn't have to push that hard. And then I couldn't anymore. And I don't know if that, I think that was probably a big part of the fear that came with it. But ultimately, I came to the conclusion that yes, I did want to do this. I did want to keep my horses. That as much as I loved being a body worker and a facility manager and an instructor, that I still wanted to ride. I still wanted to be physically active. That I did not want to end up in a wheelchair. And that as much as I deeply appreciated my cane and my back brace, that I I needed to try whatever that was. So I made a commitment that evening that I was going to try. And as the algorithm in Facebook often does, one of the things that occurred in life is there is a video of a veteran who had been blown up and he was showing his journey in life a video, I think we call it a reel now, but it was pretty long, of him committing to yoga and how yoga took him from wheelchair, walker, cane. And the most powerful part of that, because I sat there watching it and saw enough of myself in it to go, maybe this is the path. Maybe this is the trajectory. I've got to figure out my, what are my movements? Why am I so one side dominant, et cetera. Was he also showed himself falling and absolutely just collapsing to the ground, heaving a heavy sigh and getting back up and going through that, all the slow controlled movements again. And from there, it was like I had a, I had a string. I don't know what I do, but it should look probably or feel something like this video. And, and that was it. I was committed to my horse. It is and knew I needed a new and different path and really held onto that little, little spark. I wouldn't even say it was a fire. Then it was just somebody actually handed me a match and I was reaching around in the dark going somewhere is the thing that lights this fire. And yeah, Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:08:19-00:08:38]
I love that. Would you say that now you work with equestrians who are going through something similar? Or would you say that you work with people that are a little bit further along in their journey that maybe haven't had injuries, things like that, or both?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:40-00:11:45]
It's about, it's funny you asked that question because I was thinking about it. So it seems to me about 50-50. Hmm. One of the beautiful things about equestrians, which I think also makes us a little bit tough for doctors, is that we do have this really big, beautiful why for getting up in the morning. And so many of us push our bodies through discomforts and movements. And whether that is prior training of, you know, hospital or on from George Morris days, or it's simply, I love these animals. They deserve the best. And I, as the person who takes care of them is going to have to provide that. So it's, it's definitely 50, 50. And one of the really cool pieces is even with my riders who say, Oh, we're not starting with the mat to continue their rehab program and continue through functional movement training to see what we can do to provide a strong baseline so that they can get back in the saddle, is even those who are already at that baseline, we learn so much about the body and there's always these little moments of, that's why my body does that because this is its favorite leg and developing that neutral conversation around just a different relationship with our body and looking at it as an entity that doesn't need to be shamed or forced or pushed, but really just understood about, oh, this is my favorite leg and this is my not favorite leg. So let me see what's going on with the not favorite leg. And sometimes that leads us down, just like it does for the horses. Maybe it leads us down a diagnostics rabbit hole. Maybe we need an MRI. Maybe we need rehab. But being able to interact with our body from that neutral place has, starting with the, let me see if I can take this broken, busted body and turn it into something that can ride, to now interacting with bodies from a neutral place and being able to speak kindly to them, that's really shifted my focus and my passion on working with riders because so many of us have socialization around our body especially especially women but men too around what should a rider look like how much should we weigh what's this aesthetic you know big butts are in right now whatever it is and if that's how we're interacting with our body we've got this mindset thing that's just can i cram my body into this square peg round hole situation or Can I interact with it in a way where I'm asking what what do you need today and be able to make selections based on what feels best to me?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:48-00:13:25]
I've kind of an interesting question and I don't have it written down. So I apologize if this kind of throws you off. It kind of came to mind when you were speaking, because a lot of people, or at least I find as well, a lot of the conversation seems to be around if there's been a past human injury. So if the rider had gotten hurt, whether with a horse or in something else in life, there can be a fear involved, a fear of getting hurt again. Yeah. So I'll just speak to it from my perspective. My right pelvis is broken in two places from crossing the street and getting hit by a vehicle like 10, 11 years ago. Nothing to do with horses. And I don't have a fear of falling off and hurting my hip. Right. Because I know how strong I am. I know how much work I did to rehabilitate myself and all of that. There's not the fear there. Maybe there would have been if I had fallen off and hurt my pelvis. But where it didn't have anything to do with the horse at all, then it's like that thought hasn't entered my consciousness. However... There's often a feeling, and maybe this will relate to other people listening that have had injuries, that I will worry, do I have a physical limitation that maybe I'm aware of or even unaware of that in some way is limiting my horse?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:13:26-00:13:26]
Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And so... does that conversation ever come up with yourself or with other, you know, questions that you're working with? And if so, what is something that you would say to that, like whether to yourself or to someone you're coaching?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:13:42-00:21:31]
This is a beautiful question, so I'm glad that it has come to us. The simple answer to that is, yes, it's a possibility. Now, that does not mean that it is definite. And with that... It also does not mean it's going to affect our horse. And one of the things that made James such a powerful horse for me at the time is that he emotionally did not care that I was incredibly crooked to carry. And he was like, well, boss, it's okay. Don't worry. We got this. I'm going to get us through it. And he did not mind that. using his physical strength to carry me. And on the flip side, it did show up physically in his body. And I figured that out by riders who did not have an injury riding him and seeing the difference post-ride. His primarily showed up in his lower back, not surprising. as that's where my injury is. And I find that it is often reflected, but that's not guaranteed. So that whole other track of thought there, but it did show up in him physically. And so I, working with Celeste Lazarus, who's the founder of BTMM, we figured out a post-ride massage program that I could implement as the owner. to help balance the scales in his body back to neutral. So he knew how to go more than a single ride with what I had written into him, which also continued to fuel my fire as I gained deeper understanding through facing that crooked piece in his body. And I made the commitment not to bash my body. I made the commitment to talk more kindly to myself. And I will tell you that when I put hands on his back and I was like, this is my fault. It's a very easy, slippery slope down into this is my fault. I'm a terrible rider. But your body carries that just as much as the physical damage. I had to go. He loves what we're doing. And it's okay. And I'm doing something to address this. And not only am I doing something to address this right now through massage, whether that's my own hands, somebody else's hands. But then I also got to see when I made improvement. And I didn't put that in his body. And to be able to go, I shouldn't cancer today because I'm crooked. And I know that's going to make him crooked. And I don't have time to do body work after. And to have that depth in our relationship. really was personally inspiring on that. I can see the improvements, whether the improvements was simply my understanding, whether the improvement was, and now I'm much straighter in my body, to I committed, going to segue here, because I think many, many professional equestrians have moments like this where we get injured, we can't take on as many training courses, we can't fulfill our duties as a trainer. And so there's a financial cost to that as well. And so I was pinching pennies, praying that I could afford feed and all of these things for my horses, which is also what pushed me to, well, I guess you're going to figure out how to do body work. And that as I got stronger and I was able to take horses in and my financial situation wasn't so dire, instead of putting more of that into my horses, I chose to put it more into the actual cause of why he needed body work or acupuncture or et cetera. And I got weekly massages and I got a gym membership and I went every damn day because I could see, oh, if I Thankfully, I have an injury that massage was helpful to restore range of motion. If I then take that increased range of motion and I gain strengthen it, now I'm riding him straight again. In fact, now I'm riding him straighter than he is on his own. And it really helped to heal that riding is and can be good for horses, even if I don't have factory settings on my body anymore. It took seven years. But holy cow, what a deep, deep relationship we had. And I know we started with a short answer and then we got into a long one. But yes, even if we feel confident, there can certainly be some bits of crooked. You know, we're not quite a straight package to carry. It's hard to get into neutral. The big place that I see it is sitting trot and canter. You know, my horse struggles to pick up a lead. If I don't have a reason why that's in their body, there's a chance it's in my body. And some horses don't care. They are barring injury. So this is case by case basis. They are bigger than us and they can pick us up. And I'm going to tell a story about Celeste Mayer Mays, who was the first horse that I rode, who was like, I still remember what it felt like when she looked back at me. So anytime I would get on a new horse, I was better to the right than to the left. And so I'd start to the right and I would go, this is my neutral. This is contact. This is these things. Here's how I ask you to engage. Here's how I ask you to find bend. Here's how we transition between circles and straight lines. And she's like, yep, cool. Love it. Awesome. And then we went to the left and she stopped and her ears stood straight up. And then she looked over her shoulder at me and I could feel her go. What the hell is that? So we sat there, we breathed through it. I was like, I promise to not tell you what that means to you. I am crooked. Totally get that. This is my first ride on you. You're a super sensitive mare. I get that people have pushed you through things where they were crooked and they were not communicating with these planes of motion. I see that I'm injured. I see that you see it. What does this mean to you? And so you would go to my air quotes, you know, bad direction. And I would ask her and after a few minutes, she went, okay, okay. I can roll with that. If you asked me to canter, I'm going to be pissed. I will not ask you to canter, I promise. But it was such a fun moment with a horse who did really care in that time. Let her say her piece, not have her be in trouble for it and come to an agreement that had I had more time with her, We would have eventually, I am sure, figured out what means what. And it is when you look at movement through the planes of motion, how your body interacts with those, what you can access, what you struggle to access, and your horses start to realize that the rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper. And it's so beautiful and so enlightening, and so many of them are so funny about it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:32-00:21:55]
That's so funny. First of all, I love everything that you said. I love the redirect. I love the reframe, all of that that you had given. But the thing that was really funny is when you were telling the story about Mays, and there was one time that Celeste and I were doing a video lesson, and or Zoom lesson, whatever, with my mare, Soda.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:55-00:22:01]
And Celeste said, first of all, she looked exactly like Maze.

[SPEAKER 2]
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But also, Celeste said she was like, they could be related because Soda actually is from the U.S. And so she was like, they honestly could be related. They are so similar. And when you're telling that story, I'm like, oh, my God, Soda does the exact same thing to me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:19-00:22:22]
She'll turn and look back and be like, What are you doing there?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:23-00:22:28]
You want to talk about that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:28-00:23:18]
I love it because in healing our relationship with our bodies, that having mares like Soda and Maze be able to firmly, kindly, and with a little, like, punch to it, be like... what? It's like that, whatever that is. I can also embody that when I accidentally throw my phone for what feels like no reason and be like, okay, let's figure out why that happens. And really help to shift the inner monologue and embody more of that when I'm feeling snarky, so that I don't get snarky to self-deprecating.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:19-00:24:32]
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. You may have answered this question already, but I want to ask it again, just in case we want to go a little bit deeper. Behind the inspiration of helping riders improve their biomechanics and posture. A lot of the guests that I bring here onto the podcast, um, we discuss like equine biomechanics, not as much with the riders biomechanics. And as you know, we know it, you can't have one without the other. They're completely related. And so when, when we looked at originally, um, The discussion of, you know, helping riders come back into their bodies and heal and, you know, all of those things to be able to then ride. But then looking at, OK, so so now now we're going to start to break it down. Now we're going to talk a little bit more about the fine details of the mechanics and the posture. And so where do you go from there with riders to make that transition into really helping them to have that physical awareness and that self-awareness to kind of say, Oh, I think I am putting a little bit too much weight in my right seat bone right now, you know, or, or whatever it might be.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:32-00:26:35]
Yeah. That's a great question because this has of all the things I'm going to wind back really quick and tell the whole story. So I've loved, the concept of rider biomechanics from day one in my equine journey. Maybe not day one, maybe like day three. Maybe once I got past Aaron, the big, beautiful eyeballs and how big and sexy they all are. Once I was past that, from the first dressage lesson, which was on a lunge line with my mother, I just loved this concept of thinking about where I needed to be in space. And possibly because this might surprise people, but I'm very type A and I was a really good student and I really loved external goals and really just killing myself to meet those like that little bit of a sadist masochist relationship with meeting goals as a kid or as a teenager. And from my first I just loved being able to bring that awareness into the saddle with me. I loved the physical grind and getting gritty and trying to stay with it. And the appreciation for my mother had severe scoliosis and she is fused from her lumbar to the base of her neck. So she has no movement from her upper lumbar through her entire thoracic. And to watch her still one of the most elegant women ever. on the planet that I mean I just really do put her on a pedestal and I think she deserves to be there and um watching her sit and to know even as it really as a teenager there's no movement in there that part of her spine is completely fused and everything else in her body is capable of making up the difference because she has this awareness of it and Just appreciating that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:35-00:26:49]
So like the fact that like rider's posture, rider's biomechanics, how it's such a tool for us for not only helping our own horses posture and biomechanics, but also like just the communication in the saddle.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:50-00:29:31]
Yep. And I remember the first part of the question, if I'm recalling correctly, was how to introduce that. So once we're past the breath work and the mat phase and doing some of our gentle movements, Why did I tell that story in the first place? I told that story in the first place because I was very dogmatic and ideologic about it. I think I was kind about it, but I really had that. This can be correct and perfect. I think the perfect part is probably a little bit what got me in trouble. And thankfully, I had my mom, who is a very kind teacher, but she was also raised that way, that we are striving for perfection. We're never going to achieve it, but we are striving for it. And I have softened through my injuries, through aging, through working with many, many, many clients who like myself and often to a greater degree than what I have in my body, don't have factory settings either from the get-go or through injury have lost it. And then as a mom and how that's shifted how i could approach writing i have brought on a lot more play and so instead of the traditional we're going to do this and i'm going to tell you that you are correct or incorrect or balanced or not we're going to have tools and zoom lessons really help to solidify building this of I can't come in and go, this is where you should be. I cannot get on your horse through a Zoom lesson and demonstrate the differences from the horse's perspective. But what I can do is bring on play and say, hey, I think this is happening. Let's have you test it out and see what it feels like to you. And building those tools of not just awareness of what neutral would be in biomechanics, and where our simple, basic seat is going to come from. But then also being able to self-check and to learn sometimes what feels or looks to me like there's more weight in the right seat bone isn't going to feel to you like weight in the right seat bone. It might feel like your right seat bone is elevated. And being able to know, oh, this is how My nervous system is interpreted by my brain so that I know, just so that I know, this is my body's language.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:33-00:30:14]
It's such like an approachable way of looking at things is, like you had said, to be able to break it down. And that's how I want to start the discussion of the rider's pillars. For those who are familiar with the balance through movement method, Pillars for Horses, You have also developed the pillars for riders. There's pillar one, relationship to self, pillar two, engagement, and pillar three, spinal integrity and rotational movement. Can you give us an overview of those and just kind of the background of why and how you developed them in the first place?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:15-00:31:09]
Absolutely. I remember... when Celeste had really come up with the equine pillars and she reached out and she said, do you have rider pillars? And I laughed and I said, well, of course I do. This is already how I teach it because it is the planes of movement. And thankfully there's quite a bit of research in the exercise industry on how you build a human body developmentally. And huge progress being made through neuroscience on what it's, how do we grow as a little wee baby grub to something that is one of the coolest endurance animals on the planet and our amazing two-legged stride. I don't know if you can hear the iguana falling on the ground behind me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:09-00:31:14]
No, I can't. I was watching him earlier as he climbed like something behind you though.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:14-00:36:43]
His feet is really active right now so i'm i'm loving it so i have no problem continuing on while she uh is a bull in a china shop back there and so basically they're broken down because of the planes of movement and because of human development so starting with pillar one our relationship to the self, which when I first, my understanding of these have changed from five years ago now, maybe even a little longer, when I really started to look at them as step one, step two, step three. And initially it was breath. And as I sat with that and I worked with that, I realized that the deeper seed in the connection to our breath is really our relationship to ourself. which includes how we speak about ourselves, how we view ourselves, how we view exercise, how we view our relationship with ourself often is the foundation of our relationship with everything else. And a big part of this that I'm really enjoying diving into now that I own my own home and I have a son and a husband who is super supportive is my personal mythos and which would be spirituality. And how do I bring that into my relationships? But first, starting with the self and having... and understanding at a basic level about my thoughts and my feelings and my interactions towards myself so that I am approaching my horses from as clear and I always struggle because I want to say kind here. And what I really want is neutral. I'm not always, I don't always wake up and feel like a kind person. Sometimes I'm like, I just get your lazy butt out of bed. I know it's cold, but you got to brush your teeth and get that baby in some clothes. But having a neutral relationship to myself so that I'm not bringing that into my relationship with others. And if I am, I know that, that I can go to my husband and go, my brain is struggling today. There are some things I'd like to talk about. I know they make they might be triggering. And I'm a little fragile today. So if we go slowly, if you notice that I'm getting upset, if you notice that I am. Whatever. We know that right from the get go and I can my horses and I can go, you know what? This no longer happens with Elvira. But when Berenice is visiting me the first time. There was a day where just neither one of us had it. I don't exactly, I think we were up late. There was something that we, neither one of us had it to work with her. She's a lot of horse. She had some explosive tendencies at the time because of nerve pain in her shoulders. And we got through everybody else in the hopes that, you know, we knew the pattern. Maybe if we work with the horses that are a little bit easier, they're not going to jump in our space. They're not going to do these things that are nerve wracking and will feel ready for Elvira. And it didn't happen. And we looked at each other and we went, you have it? Nope, I don't have it either. Okay, well, we're going to give her a little cookie and we're going to turn around and we're going to drink our water and we're going to watch her walk around and then we're going to pat her on her pretty little face. We're going to put her in her stall and that's okay. We don't always have to send it. And we certainly don't need to feel shameful on the days where difficult moments We just don't have it for difficult situations and especially situations that we get to choose. And from there, so really bringing in that emotional component and then the breath work. And breath work, when I was originally introduced to it, was really the longest breath is the best breath. And of course, my type A wanting to do it right, everything personality was like, yes, I will have the longest breath. What do you mean it's only two seconds long? What do you mean that I'm technically hyperventilating all the time and that I don't know how to breathe? And over time, that has shifted so far away from the longest breath is the best breath to really understanding breath is part of what helps me fuel my body. Why might my breath be long today or short today? And if it's short, how much work am I doing? Like, is this shortness of breath? Is this emotional tension that's making it hard to breathe? Is it I sat for a long time at my desk or in the truck and my diaphragm's just not doing its job in the bellows of my body? Or am I actually doing work and my body needs more oxygen faster to not have a buildup of lactic acid and develop an awareness of those patterns?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:49-00:37:53]
All right, I'm going to quickly interrupt this episode to ask you, are you looking to get fitter for the saddle? Do you want to increase your body awareness or your mental fitness? We often focus so much on our horse that we forget about ourselves as the rider. So check out WeHorse.com to access over 175 online courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of disciplines and topics. We also have courses on equestrian fitness, yoga for equestrian, and mindfulness for equestrians. And as a member, you get access to everything in our WeHorse library to watch whenever you want. Oh, and we also have an app, which means you can download a course or a video to watch without Wi-Fi, which is perfect for those days at the Byron when you want a quick pre-ride stretch or a dose of training inspiration before your ride. So what are you waiting for? Go to WeHorse.com and check out our free seven-day trial to access our WeHorse library and see if it's a good fit for you. We can't wait to see you in there and let's get back to the episode. Was that all pillar one?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:54-00:37:55]
It was all pillar one.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:37:55-00:38:15]
Oh my God. Like as yours, I was like, are we still on pillar one? That is so, that is like, so, um, I don't want to say intense because intense is not the right word to use because it, that's not the feeling that comes through at all. It's like, it's so, um, encapsulating.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:15-00:46:54]
It's so like holistic and, that's those are yeah those are the things it covers so much that's kind of what I'm getting at is all in that one pillar relationship to self it it covers so much before you even go to pillar two which is so similar to pillar one you know with the horses yeah you know it's really um are you holistically maintaining yourself yeah do you like the environment that you're in Are the relationships with those around you having a positive or negative impact on your physical and mental health? Do you have a negative relationship with yourself? I certainly did. And I will tell you that I could try to shame my broken back into functioning. I tried. It didn't work. That as I started to Live that pillar one life. If I were to have a saying, that would be it. I'll remember that later. Live that pillar one life and how much that can change for you and how much you can feel in your bones what is meant for you, what is not, how much you're willing to tolerate, how much you're not willing to tolerate. And that's all a very personal journey. And then there's pillar two. And pillar two is really when we take this idea of neutral, physically neutral, which would be posture. Can I stand in a neutral posture? How does it feel to try to work towards neutral? Which has a medical definition. It's one of my favorite definitions on the planet. It is that we're neither inflection nor extension through the joints, particularly in this case of the spine. And I love that definition because it's 100% true. Neutral is minimum muscle contraction because we're stacking the bones. We're neither inflection nor extension. And also that textbook definition doesn't tell us a whole lot in terms of what that feels like in our body. And finding that in our body, finding that in our environment, finding ways to navigate the moments that it's not neutral. Because I think on the flip side, there's an interesting shift in the holistic and natural health world and industry. If it doesn't bring you peace, get rid of it. I'm like, wow. pause. That seems extreme to me. I understand what you're saying. But I also don't think that that's necessarily valid. I don't think that our nervous system is designed to hang out at a net neutral. And we can see that in science around stress and this idea that a certain amount of stress is a good thing. And that conquering these challenges, these gentle stressors, And being able to navigate, this is how far I'm willing to go. This is as much as I'm going to push physically, mentally, whatever it is. And then being able to go, I have hit my line. And now I'm going to, the sooner we find that line and we know where it is, the sooner we can have a conversation about it in whatever realm that is. And that helps to keep us neutral. Because we can go, it's not a you thing, it's a me thing. This is as hard as I'm willing to work for this today. And that it really shifts the focus when we're with our horses. I don't know about you, but so much of how my mom was raised, of the pony's naughty, you need to get it forward. And that some of that was passed to me, certainly lighter than she had. And now teaching Logan to ride, I would not ever say that phrase and that we would go into a deeper conversation. All of that ability now really comes from, I no longer feel neutral about this conversation and I can feel that my equine friend no longer feels neutral about this conversation. So let's stop and take a step back and figure out how we get back to pillar one for both of us, whether that's we work at a distance, we just hang out and eat grass or the myriad thousands upon thousands of ways we might interact within pillar one. And being able to have that conversation with, Always going on in the background. So that as I go into pillar two, which is my personal favorite, because I love picking up heavy stuff and putting it down. I've always been like, oh, I can pick up one three string bail on each arm and walk with it. This weighs four times as much as I do or whatever. But I really like that feeling. And. There's also mental engagement that this is fun. This is exciting. It gets my heart rate up. It's there's joy in it. And or there's a level of studious in it that I also, you know, really getting into those details because I love those. And not letting that overwhelm. How neutral is this environment? Is this an appropriate level of. up energy and engagement and physical engagement. Am I more engaged than my horses? Is my horse more engaged than I am? And being able to make sure that we have tools, tools for that. My son, Logan loves running and jumping on me. It is like his favorite thing, but now that he is encroaching on 50 pounds, I don't like it. Hit pause and go, I love that you're having fun. this is what it feels like when I'm not having fun and build the awareness for there's physical engagement and strength, pillar two, there's mental engagement, and then there's engagement between the two of us. So we are engaging each other and that all of that is in pillar two. And all of that includes everything that we were talking about in pillar one for all parties, all parties involved. And being able to breathe through it. And then pillar three, which is really the pillar that I am not sure that I can extrapolate on this concept, but I'm going to say it anyway, which is pillar three is really the pillar that deepened my spiritual connection to my horses. And what I find really fascinating about that is that across many cultures, the spiral and rotational movements have a specific name and are known for their spiritual connection, whether that is Kundalini energy or working the spiral in all the cultures. So many, we have this view, whether that's dance, whether it's fighting, whether it's just walking the spiral on your own two feet and the path of human life is slowly getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Or it is the ripples on the water droplets from the movie Pocahontas. There's a deep spiritual connection in the human body to this rotational movement. And... we have the physical components of that, of being able to find rotation through our rotator cuffs, which we have four. And I, every time I hop on a podcast, I'm like, I really need to start hopping on talking to whoever it is that's in charge of schools, because I always thought I only had two rotator cuffs and we do need four. We have two in our shoulders.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:54-00:46:55]
I only thought we had two.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:57-00:51:03]
We have two in our hips. It is the same design. And, um, being able to maintain the health of that movement, especially in day-to-day life where so much of it is down and out in front of us. And so we're training a quarter of that movement, but also rotation is the core piece of our ability to walk on two legs. So we go from two legs to a brief horizontal surface to a lollipop and then That that rotational movement and the ability of two limbs to create this beautiful rotation up and down our spine is what allows us to walk. It allows us to walk essentially forever. And that our feet, which are one of the last things when we look at the evolution of the human skeleton. that is one of the last pieces of building this amazing heel that allows us to heel strike at the walk. We go over the rocker bar of our foot, we tow off, and there's very little energy expenditure to get that rotational energy going into our spine. And when I started to understand and feel, wow, I had an argument with, with my boyfriend and I'm really struggling after that argument to find my rotation to the left and to be able to connect concepts even further of masculine and feminine energies within their body, which are words that I struggled with for many years. I had to rename them. I'm only talking about that because I know I think many of us feel that way and you can call them whatever you want. So I had, Maiden and Dragon Energy, which, you know, you've met me in person. You know that they're both in there. And that I started to realize, oh, when I am giving too much of myself and I am too much of a human giver and it's not being reciprocated and now I'm feeling neglected, I'm feeling abused, I'm feeling taken advantage of, my body's shutting down. I'm really struggling to find this rotational energy. I see that showing up in my horses. And being able to go, this is why I have to uphold boundaries and I need to know what they are. And I need to have tough conversations with people because I'm not riding this tough conversation that I didn't have over here into my horse's back. I'm not doing it. And it really is the pillar, the movement in our body that taught me how much everything is connected in a In a way that if you had asked me 15 years ago, I would have gone, that's BS. I don't believe it. And to have felt it in my body, to have watched it with my horses, to have shifted the way that I communicate with those around me, to being able to have conversations with clients as a professional and go, I am not going to allow financial stress to shift my boundaries, to take on this client who I know is a bad fit. We don't get along, which is fine. It's totally fine that our pillar ones don't align. And if I go ahead and engage with whatever that entity is, whether that's a horse in for training, right? I think we've all had horses that were like, I, I just don't feel good about this interaction, whether that's, I don't feel like I have the skills. I don't feel like the owner is going to continue to, the work or we can't get diagnostics, whatever it is, that continuing to engage with whatever that entity is in our life has consequences in how our body moves through all the planes of existence and physics.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:51:06-00:52:07]
The thing that comes to mind the most for me with, with these three pillars is like the word profound, right? that it is so much more than a riding lesson or it is so much more than, um, you know, correcting your seat, you know, or something like that. It's like, yes. And it's that. And it's, it's really, it, it's less about, in my opinion, it's less about being a rider. It's less about being equestrian and it's more about being a horse person. or being a human in general, you know, like it's like the way that you are and then how you bring that into your relationship with your horse, your relationship with yourself, your relationship with others, you know, all of those different things. And so the word that comes to mind is the word profound. I just think what you created is absolutely beautiful.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:08-00:52:16]
Thank you. You've made me cry. I appreciate that. Thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:17-00:53:03]
You're welcome. When you are leading one-on-one lessons or when you're leading group clinics, specifically like in person or it could be you know when you're doing them online are you noticing a trend of any postural weaknesses or like I'm going to use the word limitations that some people may have that it's like You're just seeing a pattern. Oh, that happened in my last lesson and that happened in the last clinic. A couple of people were struggling with that. Oh, I'm noticing it again. You know, things like that where there's a bit of a pattern happening. Are you is there anything like that that's been coming up for you?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:04-00:56:35]
Yes. And I one of the cool things about that question is, is it seems as though every year there's a little bit of a different pattern. And I'm not going to hypothesize on why that occurs, but the particular pattern that comes to mind right now is humans being rounded through their shoulders and that the way that traps the horse's energy, if we're in the saddle in particular, it traps the horse's energy in the contact in such a way that it encourages horses to come back to or behind the vertical into an amount of hyperflexion. And that not only do I see that pattern and that being able to lift the sternum and open our chest helps us to bring our shoulder blades back and integrate more deeply onto our seat bones, that I think that pattern has certainly been there for many, many, many, many years to the point that I also feel it's the base pattern that creates the giant thigh blocks that we see in the dressage saddles that allow riders to leverage against their horse's contact, against their horse's mouth. And that so many, so much of the contact issues, the ability to feel clear and stable in their body are often, I don't want to say eliminated, but certainly lessened by just sitting up, and taking up space and feeling where neutral is and not feeling whatever the feeling is associated with that, whether that is shame, whether that is that this feels too aggressive, whether it is that it doesn't feel secure and safe. So many of us come into, I call this a receptive posture when we're softly rounded through the shoulders. It's the posture that we make when we cuddle a little teeny tiny kitten into our heart space. It's the shape we make when we really hug somebody or something that we love. And a receptive upper body does not necessarily mean that we feel receptive. And that I often see not just that posture, but the polarity between what we're actually feeling and how we're standing. And that it is that polarity that I think creates quite a bit of the confusion we see in the saddle because we have, thankfully, so much awareness now, infinitely more than there was a decade ago, on hyperflexion certainly being bad for horses, flexion to a certain degree being a far more complex conversation than what so many articles might have led us to believe, and riders going, I don't want my horse here, but not feeling like they could stand up. and sit up and take up that space in the saddle and bring on a little bit more stability into their spine so that their horse can also find stability. So that would be the number one pattern that I see. And it's, it's a cool one. and many layers.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:35-00:57:33]
It's interesting. I know a lot of human body workers, like specifically massage therapists, um, osteopaths, things like that. And rounded shoulders is something that they are constantly, um, working with as well is seeing this, this trend, not just with riders, but just with, with humans in general is, is this, um, epidemic of rounded shoulders, which like you had said, there's a few different things that come to mind as to what could be the cause of it. And yeah, it is really interesting how it has this postural change is not only affecting us in the saddle, but also on the ground and also just in in our lives outside of our horses as well. Um, there's, there's lots of like mental, um, emotional, physical repercussions of it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:34-01:01:13]
Absolutely. And the it's like you said, it's such a, it's such a central piece to the body. It's such a radiating environment potentially. So rounded shoulders aren't an inherently bad thing. If that's the posture that we're wanting to be in, um, let's say it's a hug and both of you are able to stand nice and balanced on your own two feet. But as soon as it's, oh, now I need to lean down and pick up my two-year-old, but I've done it with rounded shoulders, how much pressure that's going to put on our low back. And then we have many of us who are working online, even partially, we might have days where we're more sedentary than other days. And we have all these hours of sitting and hunched. And then the emotional piece of, I think, I think many of us are hoping to receive more than what we're getting. The world's got a lot going on in it right now. And that I can definitely think off the top of my head of things that I wish were true for my community and my country and being able to go, yes, this is what I'm feeling. And before I go out and interact with my horse, whose body is influenced by my posture and how I'm holding my skeleton, to take a moment to come back to neutral, to whatever I need to do to move through that space, whether that's a little bit of exercise to recover from sitting the day before. You know, Wednesdays are my long days. Monday is a half day. And... Or... handling my emotions for a moment. And this is how our horses read us is that we'll come in with that posture and they are so, so quick. I, I have not met a horse who was unaware of the human's posture. I've had horses like James who didn't really care. He cared in the like brotherly, are you okay? But there are absolutely horses that, you know, you'll walk out and they'll go, Oh no, Into the Corner with You, which I'm going to tell a quick story on that because it's always funny. And Angelina always deserves to be spoken of because she's such a goddess. But she is the first horse who I actually kept because she cared so much, because she called me out on things that James was like, it's no problem. I'll just carry you through it. And he had torn his hamstring muscle, his semimembranosus. And was highly at risk of developing string halt in his gait. And I could tell that I was what was riding that into him. So we took cancer off of the table. And I was like, this is something deeper. He has an injury, which was also my fault. And I had an error in my judgment. And we found quicksand. And he got us out of it. But he pulled the muscle in the process. Oh, wow. And... I need to fix what's going on in my seat, keep his level of work at a baseline that doesn't continue to ride that into him. And so I kept Angelina because she had no problem being like, you're crooked. Screw you. And I was leading her one day and I, you know, I was like a Peanuts cartoon with just the like fuzziness over my head.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:13-01:01:14]
Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:15-01:02:29]
Yeah. I kept stopping. I was so fuzzy that I still recall going in my head, damn it, will you just walk? And then I went to use the end of my rope, and I went, or, Catherine, hear me out. Why don't you pause and see why the very, very, very forward, spicy Chinese dragon mare doesn't want to walk? And so I halted. And then I backed up thinking I'll just put her in the emotional regulation box so that she can think about what's going on. And then I stood in my emotional regulation box and I took a few breaths and I came to the present moment. And then I just erupted into tears and stood there. I was maybe 10 seconds of just really crying. And I finished. I was like, what? I feel so much better. And then she took a big breath, licked and chewed. And then she's like, and now we can walk. So we're walking and this is, I had her out maybe five minutes total, but I'm walking her and I went, that, she just, she just put me in emotional regulation box.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:02:31-01:02:32]
She's like, you need a minute, human.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:02:34-01:02:39]
You should go stand on the end of that rope and think about whatever it is that's got you. It was great.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:02:41-01:04:00]
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. I want to look at lunging for a second. And this is so beautifully led us into this question here that you recently done a multi-part series on lunging. And it is such an interesting topic of posture and lunging. Because a lot of times we think, okay, the only time that my posture or my biomechanics or my balance or anything like that comes into play is when I'm sitting on my horse. I want to make sure that I'm balanced in the saddle. And that's not necessarily the case. It also comes into play with working with the horse on the ground and in this particular question, lunging. There are so many people that struggle with lunging. They struggle to get their horse to move out into the circle. They struggle to get their horses to, you know, a variety of different things. Why is that? What inspired you to create this? And what can people expect if they, because they can still access this, correct? Yeah. So what can people expect to get from that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:03-01:04:04]
So many questions. Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:04-01:04:07]
Sorry, I was like, all of them.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:07-01:13:16]
My brain was like, and we're going to roll the little thing and pick it. I'm going to tie this back to that pattern that I see, which is part of the struggle working horses and hams, particularly with those of us, myself included, where the horse just won't give us space, is If we're standing and we are receptive, that is, come here, cutie, I'm going to pet you. And horses that have positive relationships with humans are absolutely going to read it that way and want to come in. And then it will, from their perspective, I imagine it feels like it comes out of nowhere and we're like, get out of my space. But we haven't actually shifted that. the body language that they were reading in the first place. And so that is what really inspired me to do the webinar in the past year series, starting with lunge work for exactly all the reasons that you said, but it's where the relationship with our horse first starts that so many of us just want to get through that phase that we can get to the ridden portion and And even if we are coming to the equine pillars, the horses are so sensitive to our internal space and our physical space that being able to do both is vital. And it deepens that relationship to my equipment, my horse, myself, and being able to lead the by leading from example, which allowed the listeners to that podcast students that I've worked with the ability to go, I see when I'm just asking for obedience and it's a little hypocritical because I'm actually not good going to the left or insert issue here. And it has a multi, multifold reason why it's beneficial. One, simply knowing that we are better one way than another and being able to face it and recognize when we have things say, Oh, I'm just, I'm just right-handed. So I'm no good going to the left or whatever it is that these are physical skills that we can learn. We can challenge, we can practice beyond just brushing our teeth with our left hand or washing dishes with our left hand or our non-dominant hand that it plays an integral part into our how we're moving through space because going left and going right are different and going straight is yet different again from both of those. Being able to lead from a place of integrity, simply meaning we're saying what we mean to with our body that if my horse is encroaching on me or my horse is leaving and wants nothing to do with me at all, that I can say clearly this is where our relationship should start. And do I actually have the tools other than hanging on for dear life to try to keep them from bolting away from me or smacking the crap out of them to ask for some space? Is there something more clear to them that I can do that is not jumping straight to punishment, which is unfortunately how many of us are taught. And we're also taught that it's not safe. And while I understand that having a horse close to us is not inherently safe you are certainly more likely to get stepped on the behaviors of that create that lack of safety and why so many of us have been taught to control how close our horse can get to us is actually a deeper more complex conversation than simply the horse is too close don't let them do that including Sometimes horses will fall in on circles. They will be quite counterbent. And then they will kick into the circle, which is really just a nerve fire on the inside hind from being on too small a circle. And they're not actually kicking at us. And nine times out of 10, I find even more often than that, 10 times out of 10. Very rarely is the horse actually mad at us. Most of the time, there's something going on in their body that feels uncomfortable and And we don't have the language to help them create space and a sense of comfort and safety within their own body. Most horses, when they crowd you are just there because you're receptive and, or you look receptive and they're very shocked. I think of all the poor sweet geldings that are like, what do you mean? You don't want to pet my face some more. But when I can stand up and be non-receptive, I like to think of the, you know, mare and Elvira, Angelina, Soda, Maze, walking up to the water trough going, I'm getting a drink now. Like very neutral, very matter of fact, just I would like some space and being able to have that clarity. And then from there, what's next? What's next after we've established this is how this is how much space I need, which is different for everybody. I need six feet because I can be a little slow sometimes. So I teach my horses six feet. They come six feet close to me. So two meters. And then I'll say stop. And then if I would like to approach you, I'm going to ask and I'm going to become receptive. Wait for a sign that you would like me to approach and I will cross the last two meters. And that helps to keep me safe, whether that's because Logan is with me, because we went for a really long car ride and my body just isn't quite sure where it is in space. It gives us time. It helps me to feel in control of my own body and safe. And so we can have a nice mutual conversation from there. And then building from there, being able to say, I would like you to go left and then assess, I have. made left in my body. I am clearly asking for this. My horse understands that I'm asking for this. That's weird, they can't go left. Now I can look at the horse's body and start to ask the question of, well, why? Why are they struggling to go left? Is this a balance issue in them? Is this a training issue? Am I actually saying left or am I secretly countervent and saying right? And being able to bring that baseline conversation into the work with the horses, starting in hand, whether that's leading or lunging. And the main reason I really wanted to dive into that is because there are so many how-to, whether it's natural horsemanship, classical, whatever it is, whatever modality it is prescribing to horses, There are many how-to videos that tell you about how to use your tools, where to place them, and that you do these things and the horse should simply do the thing. And if they don't do the thing, I see very few how-to videos, although more and more every year, that go into let's figure out why rather than let's escalate pressure and get some obedience and get this to happen. And being able to exist in that gray zone between, yes, this thing I need or I feel I need obedience for, and for safety reasons for whatever it is, versus, okay, we have the conversation, but I see that my horse is still struggling, or I see that I'm struggling, And I'm not as clear this direction. And I can take some of that expectation off of the horse. Because I personally don't believe, I believe if the horse wants to make up the difference, they can. James had, as I've stated many times, zero problem making up the difference. He was also incredibly joyful in the moments where he didn't have to. But he would always, so it made him a phenomenal competition horse. There was always a, I could put him in race mode and go, but if there was a blip in my seat, he always kept track of that blip in my seat. And he was willing to go, whoop, whoop, whoop, I got you. Don't worry. We're going to be okay. I left you behind. And there are horses that cannot do that. And I am not going to ask them to. I'm going to try to find what do I need to do to make up the gap if this is my body. And I'm certainly not going to ask horses to push through physical issues in their body, especially if I think that they are uncomfortable or painful.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:13:16-01:13:35]
I find that whole conversation so fascinating. As I'm listening, I'm thinking, okay, so... My gelding, we go to the right, no problem, when lunging.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:13:36-01:13:38]
But we often struggle to the left.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:13:39-01:14:12]
And as I'm listening, I'm like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know, I think I really need to sign up for this. I'd love to know, Catherine. I've been asking people this question a for probably two years now on the podcast because there's a shift that is happening. There is things that we're noticing in the equestrian industry, some good, some bad. And I would love to know what is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:15-01:17:49]
My hope for the future of the equestrian industry is that if people... humans can become more embodied and live a holistic life. Not in the, I spent all this money to go to a retreat. I bought the pretty mug with the saying, I bought the a hundred dollar yoga mat. Not that, that we really sit in it and we really commit to what it means to be a physical organic creature that that is living in this world that we humans have changed so much from the natural order and really appreciate the positives and the challenges that come with that fact, what it means to be a technologically advanced species, what it means to, as a species, I don't want to say not value our green open spaces, but we are losing access to those. And the more embodied we are, I think the more we're going to realize what a problem that is, that if we don't have access to green exercise, if we aren't able to go for hikes, if we see a beautiful park get turned into a bunch of condominiums and feel that, and not run from it, feel it and face it, feel it and go, this is, how do I, how do I live in a pillar one life knowing that this is happening? And nine times out of 10, the answer is move, not get up and move states, maybe, but move your body, interact with the world that you do have, get loud, say that you want these spaces, look at and remember our horses have those same requirements. They need movement. They need friends. They need good food and space. And to be able to navigate neutral in our body, commitment to movement, recognizing the hard challenges and the positives that are associated with our life now so that we We can have the hard conversations or conversations that feel hard and not talk about each other behind our backs. We could just walk up to someone and say, hey, this isn't working and I love what you do. It's not fitting for me. Or, gosh, I really love your farm. It's not working for my horse. And not have that blow up because you're leaving that barn. A barn owner should be able to say, I see that. Yeah, I'm sorry. I just I cannot meet those needs that your horse has. And not use that as an outlet for all the other stuff that we're not looking at. And that is hard to look at and be able to simply have clean, tough, complex conversations without grabbing so hard into a belief system that we forget that life is probably more complex than three pillars is going to on paper ever be able to convey.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:17:52-01:18:01]
I love it. I want to give you a chance to pitch yourself. Where can people find you? How can they connect with you? How can they work with you? All the things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:18:02-01:19:19]
All the things. The easiest place to find me is on Facebook because all of my socials and websites are on there. If you look for Equilibrium Biomechanics, you will find me now. I was a good girl. I made a website. And on my website, it has a link to the prior webinars, booking a session with me. And, you know, you can always email Catherine at equilibriumbiomechanics.com. But Really, you know, I'm trying to branch out without branching out too far to be able to provide what people have the energy for, because I know so many of us know we should prioritize our movement and that sometimes we don't have the energy for a one-on-one, but maybe we can dip our toe in with a webinar or just haunting my Facebook page and finding those spaces. And I do still have the Rider Pillar community and course where we have monthly meetings, we do updates, there's how-to videos and things in there as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:19:20-01:19:48]
Awesome. We're going to put everything in the show notes. So everybody listening, if you're interested in anything that Catherine had mentioned, just scroll down to the bottom of this episode and you'll see the links to our website, to Facebook and all the things. We have four rapid fire questions that we ask all of our podcast guests. It's just like the first thing that pops into your mind. The first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:19:49-01:19:52]
I had one earlier. Oh, living that pillar one life.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:19:52-01:19:58]
Yes. And I heard you say it a couple more times and I was like, oh, like you have to run with this.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:19:59-01:20:21]
It's definitely has come up at all of the clinics. Live that pillar one life, which essentially boils down to allowing yourself to be human, allowing yourself to be a horseman and. Figuring it out from there, not trying to force yourself into a story.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:20:23-01:20:26]
Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:20:31-01:23:25]
I read this question and I'm going to struggle to answer it. So two answers first. There are two humans that have been incredibly influential, and those are my mother and, of course, Celeste. And my mother for giving me the tools for really, for having the tools. I mean, not just giving them to me, but for having them in the first place for everything that I can imagine that she went through to push her equestrian journey to the level that she reached. And How physically demanding that was considering that her spine is fused in so much of it. And then Celeste for... Showing me how that I was more than that, that I was more than just the checklist and the scaffolding, that I was human, that I could fill these areas in, that I could be authentic, that I could wear the dangly, unprofessional earrings and let my lizard run loose in the background and that people would still love me and appreciate me and that it made me a better person and instructor because it's just out there. And the third most influential would be James, who is, of course, no longer with us, but that he really, he went on this journey with me and he helped build the body that I have now. He is a individual that I mentally reach out to who still influences my my every day a number of times I pause and go what would James do and just for being being who he was and showing me that this can be a symbiotic relationship even if it's challenging because he was I talk about him like he's the easiest horse on the planet he was challenging In his own ways, because he was so brilliant and so sensitive, but willing to suck it up. And that moving on the journey of healing myself and being able to say, you know, you don't have to suck it up anymore. You're an adult now. You can just walk away. And realizing that I didn't need to ask that of him either and how much we were able to blossom together together. And just his body showing what integrity looked like and what it meant to be balanced and to ride in a balanced fashion and help my horse to improve beyond simply their baseline.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:23:25-01:23:37]
I love that. All three of those are just so beautiful. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:23:39-01:24:39]
It would be to do what it takes to have a neutral relationship with your body. Don't come in with a, you know, in the future, maybe you want to have a positive relationship with your body. But for so many of us, that can be, feel completely impossible. And in my own journey, it took a decade. It took a decade of shifting my internal monologue and being able to look at myself in a neutral place to where I could And having friends that were like, I don't understand why you don't see it. But it took all of that to wake up and have a really positive thought about myself that wasn't just what could I give to the community, to my students, to my horses. And whatever that takes, whatever that means to you, taking a second with it and starting there. Whatever that is.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:24:43-01:24:45]
please complete this sentence for me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:24:46-01:26:47]
Horses are, they are my muses. And I love thinking of them in this way, particularly as the Greek muses of giving them this beautiful temple that we chose the property that we chose because I knew it would suit them. And, you know, if I were to look at it as a trainer and, It is certainly a, from a trainer's perspective, a downgrade from the facility that we had in Arizona that had brown pens and arenas and to the nines. And to have instead a temple for them, a ground that was interesting. I promised Elvira a stream because she loves water so much. And being able to build it with them in mind both as a reminder that I'm allowed to do that for myself and in my own space and that the lessons are so much more than just I'm going to go out and walk the box or lunge my horse that they're going to show me something so much deeper than that. And it is that divine spark that lives in all animals. But I think equestrians really see how powerful the horses are as an image, as a divine being, as even just a physical being. They are the most beautiful embodiment of grounded energy. And whether that is God or just divine or whatever your personal mythos is and how you connect to all the amazing things that humans feel that are so much beyond what science can study, that my horses are the muses for that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:26:48-01:28:02]
Yeah. What a beautiful way to end this. Thank you so much, Catherine, for sharing all of your wisdom with us here on the podcast and for going into such deep topics that I find a lot of people don't quite go into when it comes into the human side of the horse-human relationship. So thank you for that. um, for all of us. And, um, and like I said, for everybody listening, scroll down, find Catherine, um, click the links and, and check her out because you won't regret it. Thank you so much, Catherine. Thank you for listening to this episode of the equestrian connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us. If you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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