#101 Equine-Assisted Learning with Kelly Wendorf

[SPEAKER 1]
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In this episode, we're talking with Kelly Wendorf, founder and CEO of Equus and author of Flying Lead Change.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Listen to your horse and be willing to hear what they're really saying and then be willing to follow up that hearing with action, either by stop doing something or starting doing something.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Kroll and I'm your host. Kelly Wendorf is an executive and personal coach. She's a published author, spiritual mentor, disruptor, and socially responsible entrepreneur. Her early experiences were vitally and deeply shaped by the natural and ancient world around her, where she learned a way of listening to forces within people, nature, and moments. Throughout her life, she has lived and worked around the world, studying with many spiritual and indigenous leaders in India, Africa, Indonesia, and Australia. Kelly founded, edited, and published Kindred Magazine, an evidence-based publication that explores the social, cultural, and biological underpinnings of a compassionate society. And here, she spent 15 years immersed in the field of neuroscience and neuropsychology and its relationship to social justice and the transformative cultural change. Kelly also authored and edited Stories of Belonging, an anthology from author around the world, including the often excluded indigenous voices. And her latest book, Flying Lead Change, was released in December 2020. As the founder of Equus and as an intuitive lifelong horsewoman, she also developed the Equus Experience, an award-winning equine-assisted transformational learning process. Together with her team, Kelly continues to develop and grow the Equus Experience, Wisdom Circles, and Equus'other complementary processes that curate various awareness-based frameworks that create breakthrough learning and discovery. So I'm very excited for this conversation discussing equine assisted learning, her book, and so many other things. So let's dive in. Kelly, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you today, especially about your book. Like I said, I'm a big, big fan of your work and everything that you do. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 2]
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It's so great to be here. Thanks, Danielle.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So for people meeting you for the first time, for those listening, what is your work, you know, the work of Equus and your work in general in your own words?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, thank you. So Equus is sort of the culmination of all of my life's inquiries, which just has to do with, you know, first and foremost, my own inquiry about how to be a good human on this earth. And I don't mean good as in the way society defines, but just good with myself, aligned with. myself feeling, you know, congruent and being the best version of myself I can be. And so I'm in the business of helping people find their authentic voice, actualize their potential, and really, you know, have rich and meaningful and purposeful lives across the spectrum, whether it's professional or personal or interpersonal. And we're a little bit different than a lot of the personal and leadership development organizations because we partner with nature. We partner with 3.8 billion years of evolutionary intelligence to create experiential opportunities that help people learn with their whole body rather than just have some kind of intellectual or theoretical understanding. And it just exponentiates. People leave working with Eka, they leave changed, they leave different, they leave really anchored to themselves and in a way that I think is very important for them in their lives. So yeah, that's kind of it in a nutshell. And we call ourselves Equus, which is, you know, Latin for horse, because our greatest teacher, my greatest teacher has been the horse and other sort of tangential elements that are part of the horse world. But that's the horse has been a great teacher to me personally. And and so even though some of our work. may not have anything to do with horse-assisted learning, which is our kind of primary offering. The way the horse and horse wisdom and horse culture and horse as wisdom companion has informed what we do and the body of work that we do and how we approach things has just been very much infused in the business. So that's hence the name.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I love it. It's so beautiful. One thing about horses that I know myself, I'm just, I'm so drawn to, and I feel like a lot of others are as well, is this sort of like sense of reflection that horses can give us, you know, whether they're mirroring something back to us or they're asking us to look inside of ourselves. And so when horses are reading us, sometimes it's something that we we're missing. Like we maybe I don't notice it, but a horse does. It could be my body language. It could be my breath, you know, any anything like that. Even like you said, like the congruence of what I'm, you know, between what I'm saying and what I'm doing.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Right.

[SPEAKER 1]
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And so why do you think that horses are such mirrors for people specifically in leadership roles?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Well, I have a few theories behind it. I mean, first, from a biological point of view and neurobiological, you've got an animal of prey who... If they miss a cue, they become lunch, right? So that attunement to... What is in front of me? And from this point of view, I'm not sure quite if they're doing it for you, but they're so transparent in that biofeedback that, of course, it is for us if we're willing to listen. So it's that electromagnetic field and those long invisible whiskers that are feeling into what's in front of me and does it line up and where does it not line up? And so how am I going to respond? You know, because for them, they're in that moment, the person that is in front of them. At this moment, 30 seconds ago was a different person, right? Because they're not reading something static. They're reading the organic emerging moment, which includes how you're emerging in this moment. So if I'm really rocking it with my horse, you know, an hour ago, and then... In this moment, something's gone off the rails. For me to imagine that the horse should be responding to me as if, hey, it's me. Like, it's me as if I'm this concrete organism in time. But we're not. We're a verb, actually, Danielle. We're not a noun. We're a verb. We are constantly humaning. And So from the horse, they're reading that verb-ness, if I can put it that way, of, oh, here they're present. No, they're not present. Here they're feeling aligned. No, they're not feeling aligned. Right. So they're... in tune with that because that is what makes the difference between survival and not survival from that for them. So that's sort of that column of biology. And then there's, if you look at it from a more esoteric, mystical point of view, I highly recommend that people download and read Yvette Collin Running Horses. Is it Yvette Collin or Yvette Running Horse Collin? I think that's her name. She very generously has her PhD dissertation online. You can download it as a PDF. It's a full-on book. And she went into the decolonization of the story of the horse from a Native American point of view. And when you look at the horse from that point of view, you see that the horse has always been considered a wisdom companion, not a pet. The horse originated in Wyoming on the polecat bench. They did not come from the Spanish. And so humans have had a long enduring around 15,000 year relationship with the horse. So we have had this relationship with the horse for all these thousands of years. And from an indigenous framework, which why not? Why not that be the framework? They are here to teach us. They are here. In fact, there are. Prophecy stories ubiquitous across North America that articulate this being who is the horse, who is so sacred, they don't even have a name for them, who came from the heavens for the primary purpose to help us make better choices so that we're in alignment with, you know, the right order of things. And some of these stories even point to this moment in our human history that we all find ourselves in today where, you know, we are in this epic inflection point as a species. And, you know, we're in a poly crisis. We've got climate change, AI, nuclear proliferation, rampant corruption and fascism going just everywhere. So this is it. And what's interesting is that the horse is showing up. As a wisdom teacher, we've got the emergence of the horse-assisted learning realm, the horse-assisted coaching realm, where horses are taking their place to assist us. So from that point of view, the feedback is for us, and they are deliberately providing it because that is their... You know, destiny to do so. So that's sort of the second column. And the third would be sort of tangential to biological, which is from their point of view, once they determine you're not a predator, you are one of them. They don't have this like, oh, well, here comes Danielle with two legs and no fur. Therefore, she's not one of us. If you're in their midst, you're in their system, then it's incumbent upon them to give you feedback so you can show up as the best herd member you can be. Because it's not going to work for them if there's a member of the herd that doesn't know how to be present, for example, or doesn't know how to be congruent. So, you know, it's not just a unicorns and rainbows. Isn't it nice? Horses give us this mirror feedback. This is serious business. And I think the real question is, are we willing to listen? Because their feedback is very direct. And there is a point where. If you're not listening, and this is the part that a little bit breaks my heart, only from my own experience, too. If you're not listening, at some point, this veil kind of comes over their eyes, and they're like, okay, you're not listening. I'll just oblige. I'll be the good pony and go over the jump. Or push the cow, or, you know, whatever, or I won't be good, whatever it is, but you've lost access to me, and you'll never know it, because you're not listening, so I'm not going to tell you you've lost access to me, right? And so people think everything is great between me and my horse. But how would you know? You know, so there have been forces in my life where I, you know, because I'm a former dressage rider, former dressage trainer, very rigid. situation, at least back in those days. I know there's new things emerging in that realm, but I wasn't listening. I said I loved my horse, right? I had feelings of affection towards my horse, and I called that love. But to me, love is also a verb, and it's love is about... Am I listening to you? Am I hearing you? Am I seeing you? Am I getting you? Am I feeling you? Am I willing to be stopped in my tracks and changed by you? To me, that's, you know, that's the definition of love. So, yeah. Beautiful. I mean, I can feel, Danielle, that you really hold this beautiful space because words come out that I don't normally like that are fresh for us in this moment. And it says a lot about how you hold space for listening. I just want to reflect that back. It's really beautiful. And it creates all this. And you can feel right. It creates all this meaning and connection. We don't know each other. And yet. You know, there's this deep kinship that's arisen and a lot of that has to do with your, the way you hold space. So.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I just, I felt your words so much. You know, I reflect on my mayor and I talk about her a lot on the podcast. She's like, the second host of this podcast. Yes.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And she's right here.

[SPEAKER 1]
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She's right here. She's right here. Yes. And, you know, I really, really truly believe that she came to me for a reason. You know, in 2014, I was hit by an SUV when I was crossing the street. It changed a huge trajectory of my life. And it broke my right hip. And that was the year that she was born. And four years later, she came into my life. And when I bought her, I remember I thought, I don't really think I'm going to buy this horse. She's not really what I'm looking for. And the person said, well, just get on her and, you know, take her for a ride anyways. It was the safest I've ever felt on a horse before. I just immediately felt this. This connection and I said yes to buying her before I even dismounted. Lo and behold, I find out that she actually had scar tissue on her right hip, the exact same injury that I had. And she has been my greatest teacher, my greatest teacher in, you know, a variety of ways. And as I hear you explaining everything that you had said, I'm just reflecting back on this idea that it is so true that this veil can come over their eyes, like you said, and they just, they go on with their lives, you know, and you go on with yours. But if you truly listen to them, and if you truly allow them to speak, Oh, my God.

[SPEAKER 3]
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Gosh, like the lessons that they teach you is incredible.

[SPEAKER 2]
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It is. It is incredible. And I just, I love that story. And what surfaces as you speak about this story is, you know, in shamanism, they recognize that there's our form of us that's sort of three-dimensional, you know, here on earth, right? And There's gravity and there's physics and there's all those that that realm. And then there's this realm that they call the dream body, which sounds like, you know, kind of out there. But in reality, it's those things that are like the invisibles, right? Your intuition, synchronicity, the fact that this horse shows up is born when you had that accident. And like these, that's all dream body stuff. The Aboriginal folk in Australia say, you know, the dreaming. They're talking about this more ephemeral sort of invisible part that, you know, when we talk about our dreams, we have a feeling about someone or an intuition about something. That's all in that realm. And the horse, and this is my experience and definitely yours as well, is a messenger between these two. So we can be in absolute form with the horse, jump over jumps, push the cow, saddle up, go on a ride, hear the hoof beats, you know, all of that. And they are happy to be there, happy to be there with us. And they're in this world too. They're in the dream realm where they, you know, they also abide. And that's part of their magic, I think, is that they can be in both places. And so we can be in both places with them. And what happens is that we... We over-identify with this form realm and we've got the deadline for the horse show and, you know, the horse needs to be able to bend to the left better now and do the half pass better and have more flexion. And we're not paying attention to this, this place. And so when we start listening into the dream realm with them, we... We get these wonderful capacities for healing, for becoming, for having better self-agency, for trusting ourselves more, for being willing to start at zero again and learn something new. I have a certification program for people who want to become equine-assisted coaches. And in order to even be in the program at all, you have to already come with a coach certification and lots and lots of horse experience because I want to bounce off of that expertise. And what often happens when folks are training with me, and it's a two-year program, so it's very in-depth, is that... The tension starts to emerge between whether it's tension around how we hold human transformation and our relationships with humans or our relationship with our horses. But this tension starts to emerge around our ideas of how things should be. Oh, but my client needs to get over their anxiety. Really? Are we sure that getting over the anxiety is actually what needs to happen for them? What if we listen more deeply to that anxiety? What is that teaching the client and you? What if we're still for a moment and get out of this idea that we have to fix something or mend something? So there's this tension between like doing and being, and it shows up too of like, But I have this horse show in May and I need to get my horse doing this by X. Are you sure? What is that costing you to put your horse on that deadline? It may be working or it may not. This is not about either or, right or wrong, you know, black or white, but the dreaming. And the form life, not the real life, but the form life can live in coexistence as complementary pairs, even though they seem to be sometimes at opposites, that being and doing are opposites. No, they're complementary pairs.

[SPEAKER 4]
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and mat work for equestrians with yoga teacher Kathy Woods. Check out WeHorse.com for a free seven-day trial to get started. And as a member, you get access to everything in our WeHorse library to watch whenever you want. And we also have an app, which means you can download a course or video to watch without Wi-Fi, which is perfect for those days at the bar when you just want a quick dose of training inspiration before your ride, or in this case, to ground in and feel a little bit more mindful and present before you meet your horse. So what are you waiting for? Go to WeHorse.com and check out our free seven-day trial to access our WeHorse library, see if it's a good fit for you, and start training with our amazing trainers today. We can't wait to see you in there. And now back to the episode.

[SPEAKER 5]
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Can you explain the metaphor of the flying lead change to us as well?

[SPEAKER 4]
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Yeah, I love that. That metaphor, it happened. I was having dinner with my brother and my nephew, and we were talking about

[SPEAKER 2]
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What should I call this book? My nephew, who's just hilarious, I think he was like 12 at the time, he goes, how about why the long face? There's that crazy joke. So we're laughing, right? And then, you know, my brother says, yeah, well, but is there an equestrian? Something that can be a great metaphor. And that's when this emerged, because of course, you know, those of you who have ever executed a flying lead change, either deliberately or by accident, know that there's this like micro moment of kind of, right. Of possibility. It's hard to describe, but it's addictive to feel it because it is a moment of suspension. And so as I speak about it, remember the metaphors of these words are so wonderful. Suspension, suspension from where we've been to a big change of balance to a new, but we're in this moment of, a moment of suspension before the change of lead actually happened. So if you think about it, you know, when a four-legged animal is, they never travel exactly straight. They're always on a bend. And so when you're a four-legged animal is running, they lead with one side of themselves, you know, just to make sure they don't fall over. So if they're a little bit going to the left, they're going to lead with their left front and left hind leg. And then when the... topography changes or something is needed. I mean, it's created in the show ring, but as a natural movement, when the topography changes, then the balance has to change. So maybe the animal has to go from left. Now we're going to arc to the right. So the horse has to bounce off the earth. To flip the legs from one side to the other side. And so as a metaphor, it's just wonderful because we have been traveling balanced on one side of our nature, on the logical side, on the physical side, on the rational side, on the mechanistic side, right? And look at where it's getting us. We're going somewhere we, we're, We're at an inflection point right now. And it's requiring not that we just shift, but we radically change the balance, right? And so it requires us to sort of spring off. And biologists talk about evolutionary leaps as bounces. A species will bounce forward, like when a caterpillar turns to a butterfly. That is an evolutionary leap. It's not just a little incremental change, right? So we have to bounce off of the current situation. Suspend what we think we know and change not only direction, but change balance, right? So this is why the flying leaf Change is such a great metaphor. And it requires like presence and a certain, if you in any way are out of balance as the rider, you're going to sabotage the horse's efforts to be able to do the flying change. So you have to be in this sort of Zen place. To make it happen and balanced and congruent with your horse, right? So all this sort of stuff has to line up. So there's many layers to that metaphor. But this is where we are, right? Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:26-00:24:55]
And if we were to look at this from the human perspective, like let's say somebody is on the wrong lead, so to speak, and that may mean that they're a little bit of, you know, like you had mentioned, balanced more on the doing side, the logical side, the physical side. And so perhaps a flying lead change could be effective or could be helpful. What does a flying lead change for a human look like? Yeah, let's start there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:56-00:30:05]
That is a great question. Out of all the interviews I've done, no one has asked that question. That is so great. So that's really what we're in our business, Equus. We're in the business of helping people have a flying lead change in their life. That's really what we do. And so there's prepping, you know, preparing to help. And then the springing forward, the suspension, the unknown, the landing on new ground, right? The whole thing is happening. And we hold people in that space really well. It can look like, first of all, what happens is what's called a disruption. And a disruption can be being hit by a car, right? By an SUV, a cancer diagnosis. Can be something positive. Can be a marriage, a new baby, right? A new horse. So from the natural point of view, in the natural world, disruption is neither positive nor negative, but disruption is like, oh, right? It's that. Oh, so sometimes it might show up. You're in a conversation with a partner and you've been together for three years and they say something and you're like, oh, there it is. And you just know, you can't unknow it. And you just know. That this is not going to work anymore, right? Well, so we'll just use that as an example. So the disruption happens and then everything has to change. So you have to step into the unknown, right? You don't know what life is like after this person. You might even let go of old friendships. Everything is a little bit, there is a sort of a letting go phase, letting go of the ground you know. And springing off into the unknown. But then in that unknown moment is also starting to reorient towards a new balance. You know, the old way is reliant on people pleasing, not having boundaries, being in a codependent relationship with somebody, putting yourself aside. These are old habits, you know, are no longer, you're out of balance. You know, these aren't going to serve you anymore. So the disruption comes, you know, you can't keep going this way. And then you learn a new way of being that in this, in this example is more about self-reliance, internal locus of control, trusting oneself, being willing to be alone in that aloneness of self-agency that naturally happens. That's an example. Another example could be a team. You know, you just, as an organization, you realize you just keep hitting this glass ceiling. And part of it has to do with the company culture and that this culture is no longer going to serve this organization's growth and resilience and sustainability. And so that awakening to that is a disruption. And so you... Gather together, you spring off the known, the known ground, you step into the unknown, and you garner information that is from a new way of looking at things, discarding old narratives, looking at new narratives. And so organizationally, it can happen. individually, personally, and professionally. So, and another way to look at it is biologists have coined a framework called the adaptive cycle. And the adaptive cycle is just the way nature evolves. It's a way of framing the flying lead change. And it looks like the framework looks like in a little. elliptical, you know, a figure eight on its side and there's four quadrants. So there, if we, if we just use the caterpillar as an example, cause it's just so easy. The new beginning is over in the upper right, left-hand quadrant. And that's the little caterpillar being born. And then there's, you swing down to the growth quadrant. So he's eating all the leaves. He's growing and growing. And then you swing up to the upper right-hand quadrant and it's consolidation. He's as much caterpillar as he's going to be. He can't grow into any more caterpillar. And then the disruption happens, right? Something clicks in his body that says, oop, I have to stop. And the cocoon starts happening. And that swings into the bottom. Lower left-hand, right-hand quadrant called letting go. And that is when the cocoon happens, the caterpillar melts. And from his point of view, it's annihilation, right? And then it swings back up to new beginnings, but now it's from a butterfly. But that place from letting go, and endings to new beginnings right there in the middle of the eight is called the messy middle because it's messy, right? So like if we were to track a little bit your journey with your horse, you had, you were living your life four years ago and it was sort of at a place where things were consolidating and then wham, you have the accident. Major disruption, letting go of everything you knew, right? That you, who you were, what you had to look at, what was important. And I'm just guessing because whenever a disruption happens in our life, it does have this pattern.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:07-00:30:17]
I was in a very corporate career path. Yes. And then I opened a yoga studio. There we go. There we go.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:17-00:30:47]
But who comes in? An ally comes in, right? You let go of the corporate and it's probably messy and scary. And you've got friends going, wait, what are you doing? You know, why? This is never going to work for you. You know, it's all like, ah, and, but you have an ally and it's your mayor. And she assists you in that sort of dark, messy, scary cocoon period so that the new beginning can emerge, which is you as podcaster.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:48-00:30:49]
Right. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And many other things, you know, you as horse listener, you as horse ally, right? All these, all these things that have emerged.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Oh yeah. She has held my hand through it. That's for sure.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:02-00:31:02]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:03-00:31:42]
So all of that can be really scary for somebody as well. You know, like even the idea of of knowing there's a messy middle, even if you know it could be really, really good on the other side of it, it can still feel scary to go. First, you know, away from a comfort zone. And second, into something that, you know, could be a little tumultuous. So what role does the horse have in helping someone either make that decision or, you know, or help them through it versus traditional, you know, talk coaching or therapy or things like that?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:42-00:34:31]
Yeah, that's beautiful. So it is scary. And a lot of the reason why, you know, human beings continue to have different developmental phases until they die. So we know a lot about developmental phases of kids and young people, but as adults, we also have that trajectory too. However, people often will plateau at a certain developmental place because the change is so scary and hard. And our over culture is set up to push back hard against people transforming and changing. We don't like change. And through one lens, that resistance is part of the initiation, you know, but people don't want you leaving the corporate job. They don't want you to live, you know, working for yourself. It's too like, how are you going to make money? Like that whole thing. So you have internal pushback of this is really scary and messy and I'm leaving everything behind that I know. And then you have external pushback. Are you sure you want to quit your job? And like, how are you going to deal with health insurance? Right. And that external pushback has a name and it's called tribal shaming. It's the way that people get, they don't mean it. They don't mean it. at all, but they get activated. The more primitive part of the brain says, ooh, somebody's leaving the tribe. They're leaving the fray. It's a term coined by a guy named Dr. Mario Martinez. And that's not good. They'll get eaten by a saber-toothed tiger. And if our hunter gets eaten by a saber-toothed tiger, we also are going to starve. So that's kind of like what's happening, even though people don't realize it. And so they say stuff like, Gee, you've looked so tired since you started that new job. Or you've really let yourself go since you started that podcast. Or like, you're not really riding your horse enough. Like, I just see you sitting around with your horse all the time. How are you going to like, how are you going to develop that top line? Right. This is all tribal shaming when people step out of the fray. And the reason I'm building this is to talk about just how messy it is and how dark and scary because you're getting it from the inside. And the outside. Talk therapy, talk coaching can be very helpful, especially if your practitioner is working somatically and understands how the body carries certain messages, then you're getting into the experience realm. But the horse, with their very large nervous system, and larger nervous systems have more influence over smaller nervous systems, ours, their nervous system comes from a 56 million year old successful system. So it's not Not just any large nervous system. It's one of the most successful large nervous systems. They've been through how many messy middles.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:32-00:34:32]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:34-00:34:48]
How many? Flying lead changes, tectonic shifts, climate spikes, volcanic mega explosions, pandemics. They've been through it all. They have bounced through that evolutionary adaptive cycle millions of times.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:48-00:34:54]
Even the man-made ones, you know, war, building roads, you know, all of those things.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:54-00:35:07]
Yeah, slaughter, you know, everything. And even now where the over-gentrification of horses, where they're now put in little boxes rather than out in pastures, right? They're surviving that even.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:08-00:35:08]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:08-00:39:21]
So you're with a nervous system that knows how to do this. And it's beyond words, right? And so it downloads this material into your nervous system. And your nervous system becomes resilient to the... It's like it equips your nervous system for the messy middle, just to put it very simply. And that's kind of a side. So when I do my sessions, we have a process called the Equus Experience, and it's an equine-assisted learning process. I'm a coach. I'm a certified, an ICF certified coach. There is a coach conversation going on, but the real meat of the work is happening non-verbally while the person is with the horse, not even necessarily knowing what's happening, but the horse is just giving your nervous system all it needs so it can successfully navigate through a messy middle. And so that is very, very powerful work. Now to make, to ensure that that happens. Yeah, and here's where I get super opinionated. The person that is the facilitator has to have a long, enduring relationship with their horses, that the horses feel safe and seen, and has to have an ethical framework. And a skill set to be able to hold the human, their client well as well. The horse assisted industry is unregulated and the coaching industry is unregulated. We do have governing bodies that uphold certain ethics and standards, the ICF being one of them. But there are a lot of people out there calling themselves coaches who aren't certified, who aren't trained, and they just like people and they want to help people. And I'm not talking about like some kind of rigid set of rules, but there is a duty of care. That we have to uphold. As people who are holding the human heart. And there are people who will come into a herd, not know the herd at all, not know the horses at all, facilitate a thing and, you know, stuff can happen, but stuff can also happen. And so it isn't respecting the horse and the horse's need for enduring relationship. You cannot use the horse as an object. You cannot use it as a medicine ball. And when, when an organization allows a coach to, to just use any herd or use any horse, which happens a lot. The horse may as well be a bicycle stuck in the closet. And now we're just going to pull the bicycle out and do it for horse-assisted learning, right? If you want the magic to, and no one will know the difference. You know, the clients won't know the difference, but guess who knows the difference? The horse. Yeah. So if you want the real transmission to happen, and here again, we're talking about the dream body and the real body. If you want a transmission to happen. Right. Then you as a facilitator have to create conditions of the sacred. And those conditions are, this is a holy sentient being I am working alongside. And I need to create a container. That recognize that sentience and where I'm humble. And do I, have I earned the right to be in spiritual union with this animal so I can deliver or be the midwife for what's nothing less than a spiritual experience for my clients? And the horse will tell you, and if you're not listening, you'll get the veil and the session will happen and people say it was great, but there's a difference. There's a difference.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:23-00:39:41]
Is there anything else that... You and like the Equus experience do differently than other equine assisted learning. So we have, you know, the deep understanding of the herd. But is there anything else that you do maybe slightly differently?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:42-00:43:05]
Yeah, so I would say everything I just said is sort of the container for how we do it differently. My background is not only being... like you, rigorously trained by horses and various success and failures on, you know, on that. And we learn as much through failure as we do success. But my father was an archaeologist. And so I had this really unconventional childhood that where, you know, we didn't go on vacation, we just hung out on archaeological digs. And so this sort of put me in physicality of ancient ceremonial grounds, indigenous peoples, and teachers who are also, like the horse, uncompromising teachers. And then I've been a very serious spiritual practitioner for most of my adult life, spending time in India. And so these elements come into play with the equus experience, the idea of the sacred, the ethics behind having a deep, enduring, equanimous relationship with the horse, the understanding that the horse is the sacred being. You know, these are all very different than just most approaches, which tend to stay in the physical world and not so much the dream world. And so we endeavor, and I say endeavor very... squarely, because it's always a, you know, we're always learning and growing, but we endeavor to really hold the highest level of ethics and standards and spiritual principles behind what looks like equinous systems. coaching. So when I take people through my training, I tell them, you're going to be changed by this. You will be changed by this because you have to become not a practitioner, but a vehicle, a vessel for this transmission to happen. And that happens through initiation and it happens through you know, a lot of undoing things that have been put on your head that are not going to serve you in this. And so it's not so much about learning like that through your head, like education as a, as a kind of an initiation process of becoming so that you're, you are that instrument. And that's different, right? That's different. And so I just take a handful of people a year, a very small handful, under eight. I'm not into getting a whole pile of facilitators out there in the world because I have to uphold a certain quality and standard. And the people I'm looking for have a certain character as well. And that's not that many people, right? So. It's a little handful every year that come on. And it's one of my favorite things to do, Danielle, because the horses want us. The horses tap you on the shoulder. Like the work you're doing with this podcast is you are a voice for the horse. And that is so powerful. And what's, It's interesting is that most of the public diminishes or downplays or infantilizes the whole horse and horse assisted thing or romanticize all this stuff. Right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:05-00:43:06]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:06-00:43:42]
And in a way, in a way, I think this allows us to fly under the radar to do our work without getting in the crosshairs of. Forces that would want to silence us. But this work is very powerful. And look at the, it's a rising, the horse has something to say about what's happening on planet earth right now. And the horse has something to do about helping us to Yeah, pivot so that not only can we survive, but the earth can survive too.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:42-00:43:42]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:44-00:43:44]
Right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:45-00:44:50]
I love the weaving of all of that together. You know, one of the things in your book that I just found it was, you know, it was so easy to turn the pages because of the way you weaved in all the storytelling. And, you know, you told about the experiences and the wisdom learned from elders, you know, and time spent in, excuse me, indigenous communities. You told stories of the horses themselves and, you know, herd dynamics and, you know, the way that you were able to observe them. And then you also told stories of people that had come and did like the equine assisted learning experience and the things that they recognize in themselves. And so it was just such like a beautiful weaving of all of these different things, like you had said, that create this very holistic perspective and holistic experience. And I'm wondering if there's anything that readers or people before they come and do the experience that maybe they oversimplify or they misunderstand. From your work?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:51-00:45:44]
Wow. Another amazing question. I think that, and if I'm understanding your, your question clearly in a way, I don't know if anyone can fully understand the work that happens before they get here because it is, so non-linear and and it's a wild wisdom and by the way it's not mine this is just something that was you know kind of bundled up and handed for me to take care of and hand and keep handing on and it requires also that I continue to do my work and be humble to the process but in a way people not knowing is the best because if they could know or understand it, then they would compartmentalize it and it wouldn't unleash inside their being in the way that it needs to.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:45-00:45:45]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:45-00:46:56]
So it's a little bit like if you get a seed, you may know it's going to be an oak tree and you put it in the ground, but you don't know how big. where the branches are going to reach and how tall it will become and, you know, what the trunk will look like exactly, you know, in the roots. So it's a little bit like that. But what I would say is that when it's happened and you've had the experience to resist the temptation to kind of one and done it. And allow it, it starts to unfurl in you and do its work in you and just allow it to keep doing its work in you for years afterwards. I mean, we get emails from people who've had, you know, two hours and they, I'll get an email five years later, you know, I still remember and it's still doing, working its way in my life. And so kind of allowing the internal space to just let that roam. You know, for years afterwards, that's the best, if you can kind of somatically, meaning just on a felt sense, feel like I'm just going to keep it with me and I'm just going to let it and trust it and let it have its way. That would be something that I would say. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:57-00:47:10]
Is there something that you find is a very common pattern or feedback that when people leave, they very commonly say like, oh, this is the biggest thing the horse taught me? Or do you find it's unique between everybody?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:10-00:48:32]
Yeah, it's very unique. A lot of times they have a hard time putting words to it. One of the things I tell people when they leave here is, I really, you know, there'll be well-meaning people who are like, what was it like and how was it? And what happened? And I always tell them, you know, tell them you're still processing and just don't share it because. When we try to articulate something that is hard to articulate, we diminish the experience by trying to hand it over to people. So it's kind of a bad marketing thing. But I would say that on the whole, what people try to articulate is that it's as if some inner compass setting. Was shifted and reoriented. And it may be like two, three degrees, or it may be a full 180, right? But either way, the trajectory from that point means a huge shift over a year, two years, three years. And so they feel like, A, the orientation goes from, what does the world think about me? And am I loved? And You know, am I doing it right to, oh man, I am in myself and it is trustworthy. And now I'm stepping out this way from it. So it's kind of that. It's like a compass, internal compass setting. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:32-00:48:58]
I want to be mindful of your time. So I have just a few more questions for you, Kelly. But if somebody was listening and they're thinking, oh, gosh, like I'm I'm just so drawn into this work. I really feel called towards it. Is there any sort of context that you can give for what your specific graduates walk away with or? or the clients that they tend to work with after they become certified with you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:59-00:51:46]
Yeah. So, you know, first of all, we have, we have a certification program for people who want to do this equine assisted coaching work. And then of course we have all the work for people who just want to experience the work. But for the, for the certification program, they, I endeavor to not only kind of take them through this initiation process that helps them to become the vessel. And so they find that their lives change personally. It is a disruptor, right? In a positive way. And so people often find they feel brave enough to quit that job that's just a dead-end job and they're ready to wholeheartedly go into a completely horse-assisted life and lifestyle. They buy properties, they get horses, they leave crummy marriages, like all of that can happen. And then I work for them to cultivate their authentic expression of this work. I don't want cookie cutter me's out there. They come with their own unique background and influences. And so they have their very own style with this work. One of my certified facilitators is bilingual and she is getting all this work out into the Spanish speaking communities. And she works with leadership teams and she works with nonprofits, but it's all Spanish speaking. which is just amazing. Somebody else who's certified, she's a coach. Her name is Nell Debevois, and she does Equus pop-ups because she loves to travel. And so she partners with different retreat centers around the world and does leadership development, you know, around. And she gets to develop her own relationship with these herds at these different retreat centers, but it also feeds her passion for travel. So they don't have to be mutually exclusive, right? So, you know, that's just a couple of examples so that I'm supporting people to find their voice and their expression and then helping them to have different business strategies so that they actually have a workable business. So there is that side of like, well, how do you... Create a business from scratch or a coaching business from scratch? Or how do you level up a business, a coaching business you have already, but bring in the horse element? So I try to equip them as much as possible to be successful. And yeah, because, you know, a lot of at least coach training organizations don't necessarily equip their new, newly hatched coaches with how you do a business, which is a completely different skill set, right, than the coaching itself. So does that answer your question?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:51:47-00:52:36]
Absolutely. Yeah, it gives lots of context for those listening as well. Last one before we jump into our rapid fire. I've been out. asking this question to our guests for a couple years now, because specifically within the horse industry, I've just been noticing a big change, more so to the positive, you know, in the sense that we're seeing less dominant training behavior, we're seeing less, you know, harsh gear use, all of those different things. And so I've been asking our guests, like, what are you most hopeful about for the horse industry? And I would love to tweak that a little bit for you and ask, based on your work, based on, you know, the people that you see coming into your farm and the horses that you have living with you, what are you most hopeful about? With your work?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:37-00:53:40]
This, the whole work gives me hope because I, I, you know, before doing this work, I was very disappointed in humanity. I was like, go over to the forests and the wars and oh my gosh. And Every time I see that light come on in people because the horse has given them something, that light gives me hope. It says to me, all this is happening because we have a future. Right. So it says, yeah, it is dark right now. It is scary. We are in that letting go, messy middle thing that's going on. And that light tells me that we are on the right track. even though it feels like we're not. And I just see human after human with that. Right. And I get to see that. Yeah, from all walks of life, whether they're a corporate CEO or an artist or a visionary or a stay-at-home dad, that light. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:41-00:53:42]
Ah, that's so beautiful.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:43-00:53:44]
I hope I'm right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:47-00:53:56]
So jumping into our rapid fire, it's always just the first thing that pops into our guest heads. So the first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:57-00:54:05]
Yes, I have two. Tolerate discomfort and opt out of consensus reality. Yes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:06-00:54:10]
Love it. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:10-00:54:27]
In Australia, she's the woman who first opened the door to listening to horses, really listening. And her name is Louise Crowpack. And she's in New South Wales. Yeah, I'm really grateful to Louise.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:28-00:54:33]
Hmm. If you could give our listeners one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:34-00:54:55]
Listen to your horse and be willing to hear what they're really saying. And then be willing to follow up that hearing with action, either by a change, either by stop doing something. Or starting doing something.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:56-00:55:06]
Yeah, that's good. I love the second part of it because it's often you hear, you know, listen to your horse, but if you add it on, but then actually do something about it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:07-00:55:12]
Yeah, my horse says, I don't want to go out today. And you're like, okay, I've heard that, but we're still going out.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:18-00:55:24]
And then the last one, Kelly, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:25-00:55:36]
Shamans, spiritual mentors, and messengers between the mystery and this earth.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:38-00:55:41]
Yeah, we all have a bunch of shamans in our paddocks. I love that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:41-00:55:46]
We do. We have a bunch of shoppings in our paddocks. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I love that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:47-00:55:56]
Where can people find out about you, your book, your work, whether they want to become a facilitator or come for the experience?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:57-00:57:25]
Thank you so much. And I want to give your audience a great big gift. So come to EquusInspired.com, E-Q-U-U-S Inspired.com. That is my website. Everything is there. You can get my book there. But the book is available on Amazon and all major booksellers. Flying Lead Change, 56 million years of wisdom for leading and living. And I have a lot of online programs, virtual, so that people all over the world, we can work together. And then, of course, come to the ranch and hang out and work with my herd or work with one of my facilitators. They're all over the place, too. And then the training, of course, is there on the website. People can find out all about it. We are already opening applications for 2027. It starts early in 2027. And it's a big commitment. So now's the time to start thinking about it. I have a discount code and I'm going to, you can put it in the show notes, but it's Equus 10KW for my name, Kelly Wendorf, Equus 10KW. That'll give you 10% off of anything on the website, which could mean a lot of money, depending on what you go for. It could be 10% off any of the courses, but it could be 10% off of coaching with me or training with me. And that is, that's a very, very big discount. So I've not done that before, but I feel. I feel very, I feel a kinship and affinity to your community.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:25-00:57:40]
So we're so grateful. Thank you. So everybody listening, I'll put the link in the show notes as well as the discount code. So you just have to scroll down, click it and, uh, and then be able to check everything out and get a discount. Thank you for doing that. That's so kind.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:40-00:57:41]
Thank you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:41-00:57:53]
And thank you so much, Kelly, for this incredible interview. I don't even want to call it an interview. I want to call it an experience in and of itself. I've just, I've enjoyed myself immensely. So thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:57:53-00:57:54]
much for being here.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:55-00:58:06]
Me too. And thank you for your service that you're doing on behalf of the horses and their people. And it's just, it's, I'm very touched to meet you. So we'll stay in contact. Thanks, Danielle.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:58:06-00:58:43]
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.