#96 Recognizing Trauma’s Impact on the Body with Michelle Bannink

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:01-00:00:06]
In this episode, we're talking with Michelle Bannink, an equine behavior and trauma specialist.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:08-00:00:32]
And what I see a lot with horses who are in chronic stress or have a lot of pain is that they're going to be in this activated state of survival, causing them to look around them a lot. So they're going to stand in more alertness and this will cause the muscles in the neck, in the lower part of the neck to be a little bit more bigger. And you will see that the upper part of the neck is going to have a kind of a dip.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:34-00:01:43]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from Wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Michelle Bannink is an equine behavior and trauma specialist operating internationally with horses and humans facing complex behavioral and emotional challenges who are looking for ways to bring balance and joy back into their lives. In her work, Michelle became known for helping horses who were labeled as difficult or dangerous return to regulation, connection, and trust. She helps horses move out of survival state, back into clarity, balance, and trust, and she helps humans become the calm, grounded presence their horse can rely on. Michelle's work integrates a holistic view on equine behavior and communication and practical training structures. This allows horses and humans to experience real, lasting change and creates a place where learning, connection, and true partnership become possible again. I can't wait for this conversation. So let's dive in. Michelle, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to have you and to speak about this really important topic. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:44-00:01:47]
Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:48-00:01:59]
I always like going back to the beginning, like the roots of our guests here. So I'd love to know what led you to become an equine behavior and trauma specialist.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:01-00:04:39]
The beginning of my journey with this was my personal journey, where I really was always very sensitive and always looking for answers in certain ways. And then it was a certain moment with me and a horse that really opened something inside me. Where I wanted to connect with this horse and he was really showing me a lot of signs of distrust and I did not understand what was happening until I really had a good mentor in that time. And she told me, like, were you honest with the horse? And I'm Dutch. So being honest is one of the core values. So I immediately got a little bit protective. Like, yeah, I'm always honest. I'm like this open book. And she told me to go back to him. But he was standing on the other side of a very big area of land. So by the time I got back to him, I had... been going through all these cycles where I was very disappointed and angry that he did not want to come with me and that I tried my best and that he did not want to be with me in a certain way. So by the time I got to him, I was really crying and I could sense so much like heartbreak and loneliness inside me. So then when I came to the right place and met the horse, he immediately came to connect with me. And then I realized there's so much more going on for me in my system, but also with the horses. And it really influenced everything I did later on with horses. And the first step to really start working with them was to become a sports instructor, because in these times you could only work with horses if you had the papers, so you get the insurance. So I started to work as a behavioral, like the education program of four years to become a behavioral therapist. And at the same time, I had to become a sports instructor, working at the riding schools, working at the breeding program. So it was really interesting to be able to be with horses who are in these very domesticated situations and then also at the same time learning about their behavior. Yeah, so that really guided me to start doing this work.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:39-00:04:48]
Yeah. Do you still do like riding instruction training, like things like that from like that sports perspective?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:04:49-00:04:59]
No, I don't. No, I have left that world behind me in the sense that I'm part of it in the way that I'm providing instructions or training.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:60-00:07:08]
um working inside these systems but i do work a lot at these places to come and help people with the horses or to um to teach or to guide people or to work with the horses themselves if they have uh you know are experiencing problems uh but yeah i left those places behind me and um yeah for me working with horses really it's about working with horses and this is always what I tell people so I do want people to know if I come I'm not coming for you of course they call me so I don't want them to be disappointed but I really come to help the horse and to translate and to help them build a better relationship or to provide clarity about what the horse needs so that's very different than working in these structures that are based for example in a riding school it is about the riding and people go there because they love horses but most of the activities are about riding the horse and not about being with the horse or understanding the horse or yeah so this is a different line of work yeah I love the shift that we're seeing so much in the industry where people such as yourself and so many others, you know, had their beginnings working, like you had said, in more of a horse sport perspective, training the horses to perform, working with riders, you know, to achieve certain goals and so on and so forth from a competition lens. And, and then that shift that happens where they say, Hey, you know, actually it's deeper than this. Like we need to go deeper than this. So I think it's, it's such an interesting, you know, change that you've had to, to go from horse sport to then look at the layers of trauma and of, you know, actual behavior that goes beyond behavior to perform.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:09-00:11:34]
Yeah, I think I really had a very lucky break from the horse world. When I was younger, I really loved being with the horses and I was kind of a wild, wild child. So when the moment came where you go to, you know, just being with the horses and then really have to start making them do things. I remember we had this. competition and the horse that I was with was really scared and they told me to make him and to hit him and I don't know what got into me because I think I was about maybe 10 years old but I just took the horse and we left the arena and it really made me leave the whole horse world so when I came back I was around 16 18 years of age so for me I did not have the whole paradigm building around what is normal with horses so for me to come back into the horse world it was really different because you start asking questions that if you are growing up with horses for example you are going to go to these phases of the riding schools where you're going to develop yourself as a person with horses till you're young adults, then it is really hard to ask the questions that you need to find the horse again, because you normalize so many things. I came back, started doing this sports riding instructor thing. And I really was walking around the whole day with only, you know, question marks and finding things really strange. Like, why do we do this and then they say yeah this is just how it works but I used to study philosophy so this is something in my mind that is not going to come together so I really had an easy ride with it but I think people who are really in the horse world and they stay there until they're coming into adulthood it's really difficult to find out how to make this shift. I think people only find out when the horse is really unhappy or they are so sensitive and they cannot really block their own feelings anymore. And then they're going to ask the questions. But otherwise, you will believe the instructor. You will believe the vet even. You will believe someone who's telling you all these things because you think they know. And I started to join TikTok with some videos about horse welfare. And then all these riding school girls, they were sending in pictures of their horses that they love the most. So let's call them their hard horse. And only on these frames of the one picture, I could see so many signs of pain, trauma, signals, shutdown. So I started to connect with them a little bit and then explain the signals. And so many of these girls, they were really... having a hard time because they say, but my riding school would never let me ride this horse if he would have any pain. And they don't know that the instructors on the riding schools, just like I got the education of the sports instructors, they don't get this in their training. So they don't know either. And this makes it really difficult because these girls, they don't see any healthy, happy horses in their life ever. Because it's really hard to keep track. horses happy in certain systems. So most horses they meet, they have these behavioral expressions and they have the signals of the trauma already. So the way they're learning to see a horse is already in this state. So they don't know. And for me, it was a lot easier coming in a little more, you know, confident, a little more daring to ask questions like, oh, why are we going to tie his head down? Because it did not really add up in my mind why it would be beneficial for the back. Because this is what they told you, of course, in the instructor program. And I saw my colleagues, they were just, oh, it's good for the back. So now we're going to do it like this. So these people really love horses. They just have nobody telling them what to look for. Or they don't know any horses who have a healthy relationship with their body. So for me, it was a little bit more easy, I think.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:37-00:12:11]
For those listening, if you could see me right now, I like basically have a neck cramp from nodding my head so much to everything Michelle is saying. I want to continue on this track of the idea of like, what do things look like? Because like you had mentioned, so many people just don't know. And if we don't know, we can't do better. Once we know better, we do better, right? So what does signs of trauma look like in a horse? What, you know, signs of pain, discomfort, all of those things, what do they even look like that people could be looking for?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:12:13-00:18:43]
Well, first of all, I want to really share that this is really hard because horses, they are flight animals. So their whole system is wired for survival and wired to not show pain or discomfort for as long as possible. This means that it is very... hard to recognize signs of pain discomfort or trauma in the horse and for me now it has become really easy because it's my job i really um i'm really such a geek so i'm really diving into everything i can find about it and trying to help people understand but uh it the things i would recommend if you're for example working with horses or you're on a And to do this, you can use an exercise that is going to replace the, oh, but this is what she always does, or this is how he always is, to really see when you're saying it and then remove it from the situation. Because this is the first point where, you know, behavior and the body are both expressions of the being of the horse. So when they are behaving in a certain way or their body is positioned in a certain way, they are living in their body a certain way, then it is an expression of something. Either something that is really working well for them and expressing that they are doing great. or something that is causing them trouble or is harder for them. So the first thing would be to remove the sentences and the answers to the questions that are like, oh, but this is just how she is. And I think that will already do a lot, because I have seen horses who were showing signals of pain, like, for example, in the behavior area, you can think of, not willing to participate in the idea that you're going to make the horse go in, for example, a certain direction. But she was really shaking with her head. And this is also a sign of stress. But in this case, it was a sign of pain because... The dentist had come and made a very, very big mistake, causing the root of the teeth to be exposed. And every time the area was touched, the horse was really in such pain. And the only thing the horse was showing was a little bit shaking with the head. And this person, in this time, I was still working at the riding school. So we're going to do a lesson. And the horse was coming in with the shaking. And I just asked like, well, what is happening? And the answer was, but this is what she always does. So then I just gently started to, because I already was doing the education program to become a behavioral therapist. So I said, well, shall we just start with a wellness check? So we just start looking at the feet. And then we saw that there were things in the mouth going horribly wrong, but because of the sentence, This is how she always is. They would almost have dismissed it. Yes. Signals that you can look for in the body are, of course, if the horse does not like to be touched or if you can touch the horse, but the horse is showing signals of stress in any way. Yes. I always like to run my fingers down the spine and see if I can press the back at any part and a healthy back, you can just really push in it and it's not going to do anything. Maybe they find it strange that you're acting this way and of course not everybody likes to be touched this way, but you should be able to really press anywhere along the back and you should find some flexibility. If you find parts in any area of the muscles that are tightened, you already know that there is some discomfort there. If you look at the posture of a horse that is happy and healthy, they are supposed to be able to look around in curiosity and the lower part of the neck should be relaxed and the upper part of the neck should be in a kind of like a bow. And what I see a lot with horses who are in chronic stress or have a lot of pain is that they're going to be in this activated state of survival, causing them to look around them a lot. So they're going to stand in more alertness and this will cause the muscles in the neck, in the lower part of the neck to be a little bit more bigger. And you will see that the upper part of the neck is going to have a kind of a dip when the withers are coming. And yeah. And, I think if you are not able to really go with your hands along the body and touch the horse without any problems for the horse, then you have done the first check. And even then it is really hard because horses who have a lot of pain, they're going to dissociate from the body. So this is the next thing that you can look for is do you feel, and this may be will be something you have to train your awareness of. Do you feel that the horse is aware of the body? Can you feel the horse responding if you're touching the body? Can you feel kind of warmed? Or do you feel heat or cold? These are signs to look for. And a big tell is the eyes. Because the eyes of the horse, they are... They have these sayings about the eyes, but if you... know a little bit more about chinese traditional medicine they really say that the soul lives in the heart and it's going to express through the eyes so you should be able to see some kind of lightness through the eyes they need to be curious because they are flight animals so they they need to be interacting with their environment also through their vision and what i see a lot with horses in shutdown is that it's like the light is going to be turned off and you can see these I'm not really sure how to call it, like these dips above the eyes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:18:43-00:18:44]
Yeah, dips is correct.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:44-00:18:48]
Yeah. Yeah. You can see the lines that are a little bit more.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:18:50-00:18:56]
Almost like for us in humans. Yeah. Like you have like that furrowed brow, you know?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:56-00:23:57]
Yeah. Yeah. You can see the jaw is going to be clenched and you can see that the lips are either very pushed together in one line or they're just really hanging loose. And these are both signs of the horse being either very stressed or already dissociating. And the problem with the last part is that most horses on riding schools, and I work with these horses a lot still because I do a lot of sanctuary projects, they are doing just everything They are like the horses you want to put the children on that don't really know how to ride or the riders who are really scared. They're going to be put on these horses. And these are the horses that always be a little bit slow. They're a little bit walking in the back and they're not really responding. So a lot of times you will see that they need... I don't know how to call it, but not really neat, but in the eyes of the lesson horses, they're going to be needing a lot more encouragement to walk. This is strange for a horse. And this has everything to do with the fact that the soul is already disconnecting from the body. And these are the horses who are suffering really so much from so many problems, from bruised to broken ribs to very bad health issues and to emotionally very damaging experience inside. And this is really difficult because these are the horses that people really love. And they will do everything. They will even have the ears pointing to the front. And it's a state of learned helplessness and freeze and dissociation at the same time. And after their lives in the riding school, for example, they either go to... a sanctuary and then the problems will start to arise or they will sometimes be bought by somebody who really loves them and I always tell these people just be prepared that this horse may really change Because when they come out of this situation, a lot of times you will see the horse going to find a lot more resources to recover. And then they have to go through this phase where the body is coming back to aliveness and the state of the fight, flight, freeze has to conclude. So they're going to be a little bit more fighting and they're going to show different signs of behaviors and people really don't understand where it's coming from. which is actually a really healthy sign of their process of recovery. Or sometimes they don't get the chance and they are being put to sleep because, you know, these horses are going to be walking until they're literally going to be falling down. And, yeah, then this was their life. And this is really a hard part of the process. the pain signals that are not being recognized because the shutdown is, of course, the hardest to recognize. Horses who are still fighting, for example, you see a lot of people who are saying, yeah, my horse sometimes bugs when we're going to go to the club, for example, to the canter. This is a very strange thing to do. If they're always doing it, they have a problem with the hinds. And if they have a problem with the hinds, they're going to have other problems. So there are a lot of things that we find normal. Horses who don't want to go or prefer one side, it's not really a bad thing. But it is strange because they are supposed to be very balanced, slight animals. They need to be strong in their bodies. They need to be able to turn. So if one side is going to be a little bit more frozen, it's strange. This is a sign something is going on. So there are a lot of things to look for. And I think it would be more interesting to help people understand what a healthy horse looks like. So you can just go to a place and then just really be honest and see, is this horse acting like a healthy, happy, slight animal and herd member? Is the horse interacting with the environment? Is he curious? Is he able to regulate? So when something happens, going to be calm again, going to be breathing through the whole body. Is the horse able to have healthy friendships where they can groom, where they can play? And play is also a very big sign for me. If horses are not playing, not willing to move or run, this is very unlike a healthy flight animal. And I'm not saying that just like people, some people like to play more, of course, or they like to play differently. You always have the horses who are a little bit more focused on the food and just being cozy. But they will always be happy to move because this is how they are. So these are strange things if they're not doing it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:58-00:24:55]
So many gems in there. And I know for myself, I... Have, you know, witnessed, experienced, seen, felt every single thing you've described. And I'm sure those listening have to, whether it is the stories that so many of us have experienced where somebody says it's just the way they are or that's just your horse behavior. doing X, Y, Z. It's just your horse being disrespectful. It's just, you know, it just, they've never been good with their ears. You know, like all of those different things that we hear so often in the horse world. So I so much appreciate you shedding so much light to that. So once again, for all of us here in the equestrian world, Once we know better, we do better. Right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:56-00:29:27]
And so let's talk. I really feel I want to say something. Yeah. Because I remember at the beginning when I started working at the riding school, there were a lot of horses with very big expressions of problems. So back in the day, we just called it problematic behavior because it's problematic for the environment. And I really want to emphasize something because we had this little horse who was very traumatized. And his reaction when people were coming into the stable was he would spin around and he would almost drop himself to the ground. It's such a really, really bad, bad thing for a horse to experience because it's the phase where they. If they are caught by the mountain lion, they're going to fight and flight. But if they're not able to, they're going to surrender. So they don't really experience being eaten. So this is really like the worst part of the cycle to be stuck in. And it's really, of course, very horrible, but he would still be the one we, a lot of children loved him and he needed to be planned into the lesson. So there was this story at the riding school that he used to work in the circus. And this was one of his tricks. And this is kind of gaslighting little children who are really feeling something is very wrong. But you also know that when you are going to tell them this horse is very traumatized and very unhappy, that everybody will know it's not okay to let them participate in the lessons. And we had this mare and she was one of the favorite horses I worked with because in these times I also lived at the stable. So they were not only my colleagues, but I was with them always. And she had a lot of difficulty with what they called tempo. So if you would ask her to move a little bit harder, she would find it very difficult. So And I always have thought, well, I hope that one day if I'm going to do things differently, I'm going to take her home and then she can be free. And now... the moment came when I was moving on and I created my own company and I wanted to do things differently. And she started to having really bad seizures, like falling to the ground. And because there were so many things wrong with her body that the nerves were getting stuck in the, in the back, causing her to really not be able to recover anymore. So before I could ever bring her back, to the place where she would be free she was put to sleep because it was so dangerous and i really want to share this because these animals they are so wired to not show pain you cannot imagine what is going on inside them it is like if you're human you're just thinking well if it would be that bad she would not be able to jump or move or it is very big possibility that it is much worse than you can ever imagine. So it's really a big responsibility to start educating yourself on what does it look like? How can I recognize the face? And maybe you're going to go somebody at the stable and you're going to say, oh, I really think this horse is in a lot of pain. And they're going to tell you no, not because they want to lie to you, but because maybe they don't know. Even if you go to the vet, I have had this so many times. Horses that I sent to the vet to be checked out and the vet just said, well, you know, this is something that sometimes happens. So now I have a really good team of people to work with who are really well informed and are really both regular veterinarians, but also working holistically, knowing a lot more about the muscles, about acupuncture pressure, about chiropractic. So it's really important to know this because you can feel so strange if you're the only one who's paying attention and then you're going to doubt yourself. And I want to say, if you have the sense somewhere in your, even just in your gut feeling, then you're probably right. Because a lot of things you can really not pick up on on the outside. So this was, I really felt suddenly I was like, yeah, this is what you need to know.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:27-00:30:59]
If you have the question, you probably have to find out what it is. thank you so much for saying that um what an important thing to say i remember when my mare was going through um she had a pelvis injury and the thing about that was um it's really hard to spot it's not an obvious injury um there was on again off again lameness um like you had mentioned problematic behavior things like that um that was kind of coming up and I brought in all of the resources, you know, the vets, the body workers, the saddle sitters, the nutritionists, the barefoot specialists, the farriers, you know, like I brought in everything trying to figure out what was going on because I was seeing the signs that my horse was going through something. And this was years ago, so I didn't know what. I just knew in my gut, in my intuition that there was something, but I didn't know what. And I remember the barn owner, when I was boarding my horses, the barn owner said to me, he was like, Danielle, like, you're wasting so much money here. This horse is making a fool out of you. She's fine. She's just lazy. I see her running and playing in the pasture all the time. She's just doing it so that you're not riding. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like. This is what's wrong in the industry.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:59-00:31:00]
These are the issues that the horse owners who...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:04-00:31:44]
we know our horses, like we, we know the feeling to say there's, there's something off here. I know my horse so well, and this is a new behavior, or this is a new sign, or they don't, they don't normally do that. And for, you know, for, for those then to then be gaslighted, to have that gaslighting experience to say, it's, you're the one that's being crazy here. Um, Thank you for saying that, that we do know, you know, as horse owners, we do know. And to trust that, to trust ourselves and to trust our horses. So thank you for saying that. It was very important to say.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:46-00:37:47]
Well, yeah, I have had my very, very hard experience with this as well. And I know that sometimes, you know, when it comes to intuition, so when I'm teaching people horse, They always need to find their way back to their intuition. And it is kind of like an instrument. So it can be sometimes training. To learn when your intuition is on point and you are feeling like practical information. And sometimes you can have these things where you maybe are scared about that you really want to be mixed up. Yeah. But I really want to say, even if it makes up, you should find out because sometimes if you want to really practice with this, you should just find moments that your intuition was really on point and you should go back into your, like maybe in a meditation, for example, you go back to the moment when you felt your intuition and then you checked and it was true. And then you're going to recognize it a little bit more later. And I have had this really hard experience with, I left the writing schools and then I started my own company and I wanted to help people be together with horses in a different way. And I found this mare and she was supposed to be part of our new team and she was already carrying a foal. So without, you know, it was not practical at all, but we had such a very interesting meeting and it was really going through my soul. So I said, okay, come, she is supposed to be with us. And, um, During the pregnancy, I started feeling something was off. So I got the vets to check her. I got other people. I called everyone, you know, my friends. And of course, I was really scared also that I was maybe missing something. So my insecurity started playing a role in this. Yeah. And I went to her at night to check. And then the moment came where she was supposed to give labor. And she started laying down and I remember the voices inside myself telling myself that I was really so insecure, really burdening her with my sensitivity, something I have heard in my life for a very long period of time. And now these voices became something that were part of my protection mechanism. So I was with her noticing something was not right. And I told myself, you're causing her stress, so you just have to leave so she can do her thing because probably you are now the problem. And I left. And even before I fell asleep, I really felt this sense inside myself like, no, I really think something is wrong. And I fell asleep. And the next morning they called me because it was really wrong. She had the uterus was turned over and the baby was turned. And she was aware of this. So she was throwing herself to the ground because she did not want to fall, to be in this situation. pain and by the time I arrived I saw her and I knew she was going to die so we still went on the trailer because you know you're going to try everything and yeah it really it has broken I'm crying now it has really broken my heart because she knew and she walked onto the trailer and I saw her falling and I was with her in the last moments and And it really is such a thing that made me want to help people to, of course, it's also a healing process for myself. But I really want to help people to connect with their intuitive side and to start, you know, collectively, everywhere, women, but also men are being taught that what you feel, your sensitivity, that you cannot trust it. But there's also nobody to help you develop it. Yeah. And since that point, it obviously has become very much easier for me. Because, you know, after that moment, I realized at the end, you only have... your own relationship with your intuition that you need to take care of. And you can maybe check sometimes, maybe you're a little bit overprotective. You can imagine that the years after that, I was a little bit overprotective. And when people wanted me to communicate with their horse about having a filly, I would just send them to my colleagues because I said, I'm really not the right person for this. And it took a lot of years for me to get into the space where now it's easier for me. But sometimes it can really make a big difference, even if it's suffering for a few days or, yeah, in this case, it had a very horrible ending um but it also can be in the small things you know even if she would have survived it would still have been the moment that I would have not only left her but I really left myself and this was something that I needed to be to work on really hard later but it also made me want to share it with people even though I find it hard because sometimes you know this heartbreak that I experienced then it was really breaking something open Because now I started to understand, oh, this is the way of horses. This is the way they communicate with us. But it also is the way that we are. And that we have to find a way in life to start working with these beautiful powers that we have inside.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:37:50-00:38:39]
Thank you for sharing that. I don't know if there is going to be a dry eye for... Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. We have talked now about the signs to look for, for pain, discomfort, trauma, dysregulation. Let's talk about the signs that show good things. You know, the, the ones that are the nervous system that, is in a regulated state, the sign of comfort, the sign of happiness, the sign, you know, all of the good things. What are those signs to look for to say, okay, you know, I see good in my horse in the moment?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:40-00:44:59]
Yes, I think the first thing is to always remember that they are, you know, the primary force inside their body is the survival force. So you can see when they are happy, if they go out of the state of survival and into the state of relaxation and play. And this is also the state where they are able to Really, like you have sometimes have the metaphor of the seed, you know, when you are a sunflower seed and you're going to be put in the earth, you're not going to become a rose. So every horse has a blueprint. And in the herd, there are a few roles that horses can play. So you have the horses that are more in the middle and they are the round, ripped horses most of the time. And they enjoy being with their heads low, eating. And they are the ones who are, you know, making the safe space for the younger horses and older horses. And they are like the... the stomach of the herd. They're helping to process things. And then you have the horses who are the ones who are very aware of the environment. They are very intelligent. They are okay with being a little bit more on their own. And they are always very sensitive. These are the horses that if they get in conflict situations, they're going to run because they are very good runners. They have the shiny coats. They have the big eyes. You have the horses that are very strong in their bodies and they are very good at bringing the energy that is going to push. So if action needs to be taken, they can really be really good pushers. They need to use their bodies. And you have the horses that are very structured, know if they have a job. They like it. They like to know. You know, they explain it sometimes like the no-nonsense horse. But it is more the horse that has the deep waters with the deep feelings. But on the surface, they're always, you know, they're very stable. They're very loyal. And, yeah, they are very... loyal also to their part to play and you have the horses who like to move they are expressive they have the movement they like to play they like to stir things up a little and they are a little bit more tend to be nervous if they're going to be out of balance but if they're in balance they're going to use the same energy to be expressive and playful So this is important to understand because if you're going to look at, for example, the horse that is in the middle of the herd, you know, just relaxing. If they can eat and they can be with you, they are almost the time happy. Sometimes these are the horses with the moustache. We call them like the caretakers. You know, you cannot really use the same signs and signals for the other horses. So it's important to understand they all have a certain role that they would prefer and But overall, horses, they need to be curious. They need to be able, if something happens, to come back into regulation. So they need to be able to shake things off. Their body needs to feel kind of round. They need to move in an organic way. So when they go into the survival stage, you will recognize more strict lines, more like zigzagging movements. You can recognize... when they feel safe, that they're going to be a little bit more open and they're going to be a little bit more rounded in the way they are showing signals. And it is very important for horses to be able to do the thing that is suiting their body and suiting their personality. So sometimes if you're on a quest with your horse to see what is good for your horse, it is also good to see what kind of things do they like a little bit more? What kind of things do they... um maybe get a little bit stressed or get a little bit closed off by um and yeah i think that you can see a lot in the way they are also behaving so if they're behaving in a way that they can you know horses are not supposed to be alone i know a lot of horses are still living in stables but This is causing a lot of problems in the behavior area. So if you want to see how a horse is doing, it's good to have a lot of space and then to start observing how is the horse interacting with the environment. If the horse is noticing something, can you find a way back to being okay? And is this horse able to, you know, the first thing we're always looking at, is the horse using the nose? Is the horse sniffing things? Is the horse... you know, using the mouth to find out things about environment. And is the horse playing? If they have time to play, you know, this is perfect. If the safe space is there for a horse, they of course need to eat, they need to rest, they need to, but they need to use play and play is a way for them in a safe moment in time to still practice being a good flight animal. So finding play is really a big tell if the horse is happy. But to be honest, I see a lot of horses with a lot of problems. Also in the domestication area, it can be very hard to provide the right things for your horse. So I would already be happy if I could see the signs of a horse that is really curious, trying to find things out and being relaxed. And then if play is coming into the occasion, I will be, you know, it will be the cherry on top. And I know it's really horrible to say because I want every horse to be in this state, of course. But I also know that it can be... Hard for people who want to do the best for their horse. So if you can find a way that you see the horse interacting with the environment, being relaxed in the body, feeling confident, then it's already perfect.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:02-00:46:17]
One of the things on your website was that you said that you really became known for working with horses that were labeled as difficult or dangerous horses. And when I think of that, when I think of being – if I was an owner of a horse that was labeled difficult or it was labeled dangerous and I was bringing in someone such as yourself to help me work with this horse, there may be a feeling – that i have a um i have a lack of feeling physically safe or even emotionally safe with this horse you know it's a difficult horse it's a dangerous horse there's you know problematic behavior all of these different things so i'm going to call michelle she needs to help me with this um because i don't i don't feel safe with this horse or in this environment How in your sessions do you help to facilitate or co-facilitate the feeling of safety, not only for the horse to help them start to regulate, but also for the human who may be carrying some stories of this horse?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:18-00:54:31]
Yes. Well, I have two. Oh, it's like a. how do you a crossroads with two ways to go so when this sounds really practical and pragmatic but this is the way it is if the behavior that the horse is showing is really unsafe for the horse and the environment I will always use training Because you have to make sure that you can create a place of safety to start working. Even though the underlying issues are caused by something else. If, for example, a horse is... Something that really happens a lot is rearing or pulling away and running off. So you're not able to hold on to the rope. Then I always start training first. But... Only to make sure that the situation will come back into physically safe. And I will work with the horse. And only after I did that, then I will help the person to learn how to do it. Because then the horse is able to regulate with me and to find a new area to be in. And find a new way to create other behavior to still be able to express or meet the needs that the horse have. But this is the first thing I do. And there are three areas I use this for. So for horses that are running off and not being able to be kept on the rope. For horses that are not able to go on the trailer. And this is a little bit strange because it has nothing to do with the safety that much. except that when the horse is going to need medical care, I really always want the horse to be able to go to the clinic and with things that the vet might need to take care of the horse. So the farrier, the touching, the injections. Then I use training. For all the other things, I'm going to be working with the horse and the human together. And we're going to first find out where the expressions are coming from. And sometimes it's just a very healthy reaction of the horse who is a flight animal and who is experiencing some kind of threat. Sometimes it's a reflection of the unsafety that maybe both or just the person is feeling. So then you can really work on the deeper layers. And sometimes... it is a traumatic experience that got stuck in the system because the cycle did not conclude. And then you can really help to build safety through rituals, for example. And creating rituals is always a good idea because what you do is you create a sense of the horse knows what is coming. So if you're always going to do it a certain way, you're always going to start a session in a certain way, then the horse is going to think of you as somebody you can trust. And besides that, there are a few ways of working that anyone can use to start building safety between yourself and the horse. And the first one is mirroring with the mirror between you and the horse. So the first interaction is going to be the initiative of the horse, always. And if the horse is going to move towards you, you're going to move the horse. So you're going to meet somewhere. But if the horse stops, you're going to immediately stop. So number one rule is that the horse is going to be in charge of the movement initiative. You're going to follow and you're going to follow as far as the horse can go. If the horse is moving back, you're going to move back. If the horse is going to move sideways, you're going to move sideways. These signals are very important for the horse to understand that you are mirroring and also connecting with the horse, showing signs of safety and respecting the space. And it's going to be very safe for yourself because if the horse is getting stuck somewhere, you're going to just stop and then you're not going to cross any lines. And the more connected you are to your body and something that we call the felt sense, so not only the things you feel in the body, but you feel in the space, the more you will be able to really mirror the horse in the small signals that they are attuned to. And you can do a lot of grounding work before this. So even though you are mirroring the horse, if the horse is going to get scared, you are going to be still grounded in the situation. This is going to form the first safe connection for the horse, where the horse can really show a little bit more of himself, because almost every horse in the world has experienced that humans make them do things, either for a good cause, either for a cause that is really something I would call stupid. They have experienced it, and removing this pressure is going to help the horse to trust you in a different way. And if you notice that there is something changing, so it will feel like the energy is going to settle down a bit, then you're going to go into parallel, which means that if the horse is going to walk, you're going to walk with the horse. And now you're going to team up. And what will happen is that because horses are, the herd is like one organically moving organism. So if you're going to join, then the horse is going to recognize you as a safe ally and you can really work with this just on the surface level and it will be working very well because the horse will get to know you, get a chance to see you and this is the first part of making it safe for both of them. Of course, I will be doing something a little bit more on the side because I will be facilitating the space And I will use something that I call the heart bridge, which is going to not only be connected to very safe space inside my body and my energy field, but I will also be in a sense of connectedness, not only with myself, but with the space that we're all sharing. And working with the heart energy is very powerful because it's the only energy that's going to... help to experience things that are disconnected as one. So if you really love someone, if they experience something bad, you can really feel it, that it is affecting you. And if they have something good going on, you can really feel the joy inside yourself. So the heart is really something special because it is as if you can bridge the universe inside you. to really open up to somebody else and to go to the other side and experience something that is some kind of oneness. It may sound a little bit cheesy, but it is something like this, where you feel the sense of connection that is not only contact, but it is really going into a different form of sharing a space. And I will always do this because this will allow everyone to get into the safe space inside their bodies and start opening up as well. And it has a lot to do with how trauma is impacting the system, where you will always at one point need to not be alone and not feel alone to really process trauma. So a lot of work you can do for yourself. You can do a lot of inner work. But there will always be this component of loneliness and scarcity of resource in the support area. And this is what you need to bring to every situation, every facilitation to start doing healing work.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:33-00:57:11]
I think one of the really interesting things, too, if we consider women. And how so many of us just from, you know, society and our upbringings, our conditioning, I'll say, is to very much be a martyr. We're always caring for someone else. How can I help you? How can I please? How can I, you know, do all of these things? And I'll worry about myself if there's time, you know, if I have the energy, you know, later on, I'll come to myself later. And then, of course, you know, later never comes. And so many of us, we do the same thing for our horses. How can I help you? What's going on with you? Let me bring in somebody to work with you. And then once that's, quote, fixed or once you're feeling better, then I'll jump back in. And I have this thing where I really truly believe that in order to be horse first and which so many of us call ourselves and want to be horse first equestrians. In order to truly be horse first, we actually have to be human first. We need to be able to unearth those things that are really rooted in us, whether it's our stories, our own energy, our capacities, our beliefs, our boundaries, all of those different things that we are holding that affect our energy. Affect our horse's interaction with us and our horse's energy and then, you know, can be able to bring it to bring ourselves to them. So kind of like you were saying with that heart bridge, but in a very different way at the same time where it's like, let me. Let me be able to feel my body. Let me be able to acknowledge the feelings that I'm having. Let me explore why they may be coming up in the first place. You know, those deeper stories or beliefs that I may hold. And then... Let me come to you and say, I hear you and I can truly be honest because I've been, like you said in the beginning, I can be honest with myself. Yeah. So, so everything that you're saying is just, it's, it's so beautiful and it's, it's so needed, not only within the equestrian space, not only for our horses, but also for, for women and for, you know, humans in general.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:12-01:02:31]
I think what you're saying, it really is, I really see it resonating with the heart bridge, but the language is difficult because I work a lot with women, as you can imagine, because, you know, a lot of women are stepping into this field right now. And there is something in the language that sometimes makes it easier or more difficult. So I love to say to people that, You are kind of the key. The key is for them to feel as a person, as a woman, as a they, them, whoever, to start feeling your own value. Then you can maybe use this infinity symbol to explain it's your job now to start receiving a little more love. You can maybe start doing this a little bit more. But the difficulty with traumatic experiences is that just like Medusa, you cannot really look it in the eye if you don't have the support. So by saying sometimes you have to step up in order for the horse to heal. Sometimes women go into this place where they're trying to fix themselves. to become a little bit more healed so they become better for the horse yes and in this case they are actually not feeling their value more they're actually doing what they you know what they're fixing rather than the inherent worth yeah sometimes it's okay if they use the horse at first as an indirect mirror to start thinking a little bit more about believing your own truth Because if they can make this space for the horse, it's going to sometimes become a little bit more part of who they are. So it has to do with the part of the process they are facing. In the beginning, it is very good. If you start really loving somebody else, if you don't have the capacity to start changing the way you love yourself, just go love puppies. I always tell this to everyone. You know, they don't really feel like working with their inner child because it's hard. I say, okay, well, we work with the puppy. just the same energy but now it's an image that they can relate to a little bit more so sometimes it is very healing to start opening the space like oh i'm not listening to what my horse is saying and later on somewhere in the process maybe they can make a change to start feeling you know you can tell them you are very valuable you are very but you bring the love you bring is really important for the situation. So let's start and this is why I love the heart bridge because it is the shape of you being in the infinity symbol with the horse but you can also turn it upside down and then it's you in the infinity symbol with yourself. So you can use it as well to work with these parts of your inner child or with parts of your body that you feel disconnected from To start doing these practices. Yeah, it's sometimes, you know, I meet women and they choose a horse. And I had this one lady and she had this beautiful big Friesian horse and she was so scared to death if she was working with this horse. And sometimes it truly is because people... you know, they have difficulty with feeling safe inside themselves. But in this case, it was that she picked a horse who was like her, but her whole life she had learned that she was too much, that it would be, you know, maybe a risk to take in the social interactions to really start being her presence. So every time the horse was going to be great and powerful and like some kind of, goddess out of a movie, she would freak out because her whole system would go. So just start allowing the horse to be herself. And then slowly she can stay present with this energy. And then sometimes it's going to interact beautifully. And then the part comes where they sometimes can step up a little bit more. Yeah. So I think it's really true what you say that, of course, the key is to feel your value, but feeling yourself, safe in these teams is going to sometimes take a practice and then we may have to allow ourselves to borrow so if you are somebody who's working with this don't feel bad or guilty about using the horse just tell yourself I'm just borrowing my horse I'm just borrowing the image of my teacher. And if my teacher is going to say, yes, now you can rest, then I feel, oh, I'm worthy to rest. Just use the image of the teacher. Borrow anything you want. And when you say to yourself, I'm borrowing it, you're already taking a little bit power back. Start doing it a little bit more. So you're like, oh, I know I'm going to, you know, now I, oh, I, you know, you get the cynical part where you're like, oh, of course I did not do it. Okay. Just use the cynical voice to say, now I'm really aware of repeating my pattern. So now I know I need a little bit more support. And otherwise you get the sense where people are going to really get the voice and then going to argue with the voice. And then they're going to get stuck a little bit. But actually it's very natural. The process is very good to go through.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:02:33-01:03:00]
I love this work so much. I love what you're doing. I just think it's all, like I said, so necessary and so needed for our world. Let's talk a little bit about your sanctuary-based projects. Can you tell us about those, like your experience with them, how they've maybe shifted the way that you, you know, are in relationship with horses and all of those different things, the teachings within them?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:03-01:03:14]
Yeah, I don't know if you, because you work with humans and horses as well, and then sometimes there's this place where you feel like you can translate, but it ends at some point. Do you experience this as well?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:17-01:03:22]
I don't know if I fully know what you mean when you say that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:23-01:03:31]
So if you're working with the horses and the human, sometimes you can translate. So you give the words, and then it's going to help somebody to integrate.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:32-01:03:33]
Okay, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:33-01:04:09]
You know, there's also this part of the experience that, yeah, you can say the words, but you cannot really be inside the experience. So this is something that I encountered with the horses and humans, that I was, you know, if they are together, so somebody is working with a horse that they are living with, then they have their own universe and you come and then they can, you know. But if people don't have a horse in their life to work with, then it's really difficult sometimes to help them get their own experience when they really want you to translate.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:09-01:04:10]
Gotcha.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:11-01:13:50]
And I got to this point of working with the horses where I thought, well, I can translate, but it gives me a strange place. You know, it's like I am now going to say the words for the horses as if they are not really able to speak for themselves. And I don't really mind doing this if it's beneficial for the horse. But then I thought to really, you know, cross this bridge, because I'm all about the heart bridge. I think it would be best if I help people to get to this place where they can feel a little bit more safe inside their body, a little bit more connected to the heart, and they can start opening up to the horses That are the ones who have the wisdom, who know what the experience is about this healing process. And I did not want to work in any area where horses would be exploited in any way. For two reasons. One is to do healing work. For example, at a riding school can be very difficult. not supportive for the horses. For example, I don't use any bits because I want the body to be happy. So it would be strange for me to choose this. And I do a lot of release of the physical body around the head and the mouth. And this can be very beautiful because the parts of the body that are going to be in shutdown, you can help them come back to life. But imagine doing this when the next day the horse is going to have to wear the bit again. then you're just going to make it harder for the horse to feel a lot more of the abuse that's going to happen the next day. So I decided... to go to places like sanctuaries where they would have the horses that don't have to go anywhere else, but also the horses that are really the systemic expression of what it means to not be understood and not be heard. Because horses who are going to sanctuaries are the horses where their behavior is not understood or where their bodies are breaking down in the system and the system is not able to Help them function. So now they have to go. So I thought this will be perfect because these horses are really damaged by people and Now it would be also good for them to be able to choose if they want to be with people in any way So this is part of the project as well. We only work with horses who are Really starting to join from their own initiative and And I really believe that if you have had a very bad experience with humans, it is supposed to be a human that's going to show up to start to repair. So I started doing these programs with humans and they do two days of very intensive training because we need to dysregulate them a little bit. So their ways of thinking are shifting. They need to get into the body and the heart. And then they are the ones who go to the sanctuaries and the first day they're going to just respect the space of the horse and start the first connection. And then they're going to intuitively learn how to communicate with the horse and receive their messages, whatever they would be. And it really has changed my life. We've been doing it for six years now. I think that we're over like 120 participants. And they all have sort of the same experiences with the horses. That taking... the time and the attention to really understand what horses are encountering in their lives personally or as a species is really reflecting the way we are dealing with our own lives as a society. So bridging these moments between them and really being able to experience and learn from the experience of the horses what it means to live in these forms of disconnection is really, really profound. And of course, it is also very hard because people have to have a lot of courage. That's why I love everyone who's joining the project really, really much. Because, for example, one time we went to Romania and horses who live there, the people, the They don't believe they have feelings or senses at all. And the part we went to was a very part where people were very having hard lives. So they experienced a lot of poverty and the horses were supposed to work for them. And this went on to the level that you know, you have the blinders and people didn't have the money to buy them. So they just take out one eye. So on the side where the traffic was passing and horses were still, you know, because they don't believe in interfering with life, they just set them free. So you have horses roaming the streets and sometimes they would die. Sometimes they didn't. And if the horses were not, you know, they were at a space where they, you think it would maybe be a loving act to put them down. They also don't believe in that. So then they just put them in the shed without water and food until they die. So it's really different. And we had an extra training for people who would go there. Because it is also suffering. But it is differently. Because you know the horses were going to meet in the Netherlands. They have also experienced a lot of abuse. Sometimes really physically. Sometimes very emotionally. But we knew that the things we're going to have to be present with. Will be of a different kind of dimension. And people... really have to find courage to really open their hearts and start crossing the heart bridge, to be present with the stories that these animals are telling and showing them, and to look at their bodies and to understand what it means, for example, to be used to do certain work without any connection. Or when we go to the place where they have the retired riding school horses in the Netherlands, people are always crying their eyes out because they had no idea. that when horses are retiring, that then, of course, the problems are starting to solve. And then they can really see the tales, the stories inside the body. And they can ask about it. And sometimes horses are not as emotional about them as humans, to be honest. Sometimes they are just like, this was my life. And, you know, now I'm... But it is a good thing to make these stories visible so we can really understand what it means. And, yeah. Yeah. I have one place that we work where they do not only have horses, but they have a lot of animals from the industries like the meat industry and, you know, the chickens and the turkeys and the rabbits and goats. And yeah, we go there and then sometimes people start to understand that these animals have the same feelings and same awareness as horses. And then most of the time they become vegan because now they understand what, you know, if you have talked with a chicken or you have experienced this hard space with a chicken, who's going to tell you about what it means to live in a shed and then have all your, you know, your family there. taken away and horrible things I think this is the beauty of what it does when you not only connect in understanding from the head but when you really try to be present with somebody you can really start feeling what it is reflecting and then you can choose what kind of place do i want to take in this life in this ecosystem how much can i really relate back to my own animal awareness to really be present with what is happening what i'm choosing and yeah i find it always it's going to be surprising we had one time that we went to a place a sanctuary and it was like woodstock was happening you know we were all we we have been there for a few times At the riding school retirees. And then. Yeah. They were just all showing. How much love. And how much decision. And how much choice can mean in a life. When people are showing up. And it was like some kind of party. And all the other times. We had like very deeply. Teams. And now everybody was just celebrating. But it was also a form of. Life experience that they were sharing. That even though. they had had their life experience. Now they were in the sun and they could really start to make peace with their body. So it was really beautiful. So this is also very beautiful about the project that it's, yeah. And every participant is going to be faced with the fact that they want to fix the horse or want to help or have these inner parts that are about, you know, not being just as you said, about the ways that we can experience our social interactions with humans, and we're going to create a different kind of coping, they're all going to blast out if you're going to open your heart. And then it creates a new space. And yeah, this is nice.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:13:52-01:13:56]
I love that so much. There was... There's quite a roller coaster there where it was like.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:13:58-01:14:15]
Yeah, no, this is really the way I am. If I'm going to teach, I always have somebody there is going to be like, this is the subject that we're going to talk about today. But yeah, there's so there's so much of beautiful things that we can experience with horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:14:16-01:14:29]
Absolutely. I have four rapid fire questions, Michelle, that we ask every podcast guest. And it's just like the first thing that comes to mind. The first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:31-01:14:31]
No.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:14:32-01:14:33]
It's okay.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:34-01:14:36]
The first thing that comes to mind is no.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:14:36-01:14:38]
That's fine.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:39-01:14:44]
I do really strongly believe that love is a very powerful thing to work with.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:14:44-01:14:50]
Yeah. The second one, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:53-01:15:06]
I think it's a horse. Yeah. I think it's a horse that really reflected back to me at the time when I needed it most. Then it's important to really start understanding myself better.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:15:08-01:15:12]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:15:13-01:15:37]
It would be to start asking questions. And really be open to getting the answer. So really start questions about everything. Everything you do. Why am I putting the halter on? Why are the horses living this way? And sometimes it's an answer that you can really be happy about. And sometimes you're like, hmm, yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:15:39-01:15:42]
And the last one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:15:44-01:15:45]
Magical.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:15:46-01:15:60]
Yeah. Michelle, I want to make sure everybody gets to find you, work with you, follow you, all of the things. So please promote yourself. Where can people find you and connect with you?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:02-01:16:15]
Well, my company is called Be Stable. You can find it on Instagram. You can find it on the website. The best way to contact me is via mail. And yeah, this is it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:16-01:16:17]
Yeah. Perfect.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:17-01:16:24]
I will put. Yeah. People can join the projects that we host. They can follow our online programs. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:25-01:16:45]
I'll put your website and Instagram in the show notes. So anybody that's listening, just scroll down. You can click the link and go directly there. Michelle, thank you so much for being with us here today. I have loved every minute of this. There's been so many takeaways, so much wisdom, and just thank you so much for sharing it with us.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:46-01:16:55]
Thank you for having me. Yeah, and creating this space where apparently we could go a level deeper. It was really, really beautiful. Thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:57-01:17:30]
Thank you. Thank you. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

‍