#90 Embracing Curiosity vs. Fear with Dr. Pernilla Nathan

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:02-00:00:12]
In this episode, we're talking with Pernilla Nathan, a sports performance consultant using neuropsychology and heart science to help equestrian clients get results quickly and effectively.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:12-00:00:30]
I try to help people understand, too, the idea of calmness, focus, gratitude, and how can they implement that. And those aren't just to eradicate or support you through depression or anxiety. They're really also there to optimize you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:31-00:01:57]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Pernilla Nathan obtained her master's in clinical psychology with an emphasis in marriage and family therapy in 2006 and continued to receive her doctorate degree in clinical psychology from Pepperdine University in 2010. Her expertise were in the areas of trauma disorders, anxiety disorders, multicultural diversity issues, well-being, neuropsychological testing and academic testing, as well as humanistic and existential psychology. After years of working as a clinician, as well as navigating a divorce, Pernilla re-evaluated her life and pivoted from psychology to creative entrepreneurship, and pioneered a new healing model in integrating peak performance psychology into her work. She began working with all types of healers and avidly studied performance psychology to implement it in her own life. That's when she bought her first horse, a dream that had seemed unattainable until then. And at that moment, she began using her voice to provide others with a blueprint to expand their potentiality as well. By using her platform and skills to empower others to connect with their greatest selves, she is an agent of change. I'm so excited to dive into this interview, so let's get started. Hello, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to speak with you today.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:58-00:02:00]
Yes, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I would love to know the inspiration behind your desire to study performance psychology, because as your bio states, that's not where you originally started with your education or your work. So how did you go into performance psychology?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:17-00:04:02]
It's honestly kind of a selfish story. It was in my mid-30s. I really wanted to come back to writing and pursuing goals I had when I was younger. And after a divorce, it was that aha moment. I was like, I really want to do this. I know it's in me. I have goals. The physical capability and the mental capability, but I didn't really have the mindset tools to elevate me in the way that I wanted to, to achieve some goals that I have and still have. So, yeah, I just started studying. I just realized the. The psychology I had learned in my master's and my doctorate was about treating and healing. It wasn't about optimization. Although my dissertation and my research was all about thriving and how do we thrive when we're at the bottom. And how do we recover and excel in life? So I think it was this full circle moment of I really wanted to make this time I had this moment, this very unique period in my life about elevating, about optimizing me. And that's also when I walked into the entrepreneur world. And it's so different, you know, from everything you learn and From going to nine to five jobs. So I had to really hone in on learning new skills and new mindset skills as well. So that's yeah, that's how I started my business. And my friends started seeing me doing what I was doing and then they wanted a piece of it. And so I started using them as guinea pigs and it just blew up from there. Love it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:04:02-00:04:24]
Yeah. And in performance psychology, like you can like there's many different avenues you could have taken, you know, other sports like business performance, like those sorts of things. There's many different paths you could have taken. What was it about horses that made you say this is this is the path I want to go, but like equestrians and specifically equestrian performance?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:26-00:07:13]
Because I had always loved the sport. And I had actually danced ballet younger, too. I know I got to a point where I had to choose one or the other. And I chose writing, I think, kind of at the dismay of my parents. I think they didn't really want me to go into the equestrian world. But it's a draw that I couldn't explain. And I had to really fight for it growing up. Like I didn't have parents that would pay and send me to horse shows. Like it was a big deal that I got to go and lesson. And so I think that too made me appreciate it on a whole new level because it was so incredibly special for me to go to the barn. And I would work as a working student. I would do all these things just to be able to do it. In college, I nannied so I could have a lesson, you know, a week when I could squeeze it in. So and I just felt there was this disconnect, like the equestrian world. We as adult families don't really take ourselves seriously all the time. Like we don't think of ourselves as athletes anymore. And I didn't initially. And then I really started working with someone where I went to the barn five days a week and really like delved into the sport and to learn it. And I think, you know, there was this, oh, another aha moment. Like, oh, we need this. Like, it's not just for pro athletes. This is for everyday people who enjoy the sport, just like me. Just, you know, just... So I wanted to, I wanted to start giving back to a sport that's brought me so much joy. That's literally been my North star. And it's not just mine. It's, you know, the more I got into the sport, I made some really great friends and it was their North star too. It's everything for us. It's a lifestyle. And I think too, I'm kind of digressing here, but when I started having conversations with people about, They were really struggling with anxiety and they were going to therapy. And therapy, they were telling me, wasn't really translating to their rides and that they were looking for something different. And that's when I realized I had that difference. I had maybe the thing that could connect. both like the healing, the therapy world and writing, um, and could be that middle, like middle connection for everyone. So yeah, that's kind of how, that's why I don't work now solely with equestrians. I work with, um, footballers, um, football players. Um, I work with entrepreneurs, but it really started with the equestrian niche for sure. Hmm.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:15-00:07:41]
Yeah. When you got your first horse, so to my understanding, you were an adult when you purchased your first horse, but you had been riding like for many years before that. Okay. And so when you first purchased your horse, did you notice that you had to overcome your own mindset blocks? Because it's one thing, you know, to take lessons, but to have your own horse, you're like, oh my gosh, what if they get hurt in the paddock? Like what if they do? Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Suddenly all that stuff that comes into play.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Did you have your own mindset limitations or mindset blocks that you had to overcome? Or was it more so that you were just noticing those, you know, sort of conversations happening with others at the barn?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:59-00:10:25]
Well, the barn, I noticed, became more of like an emotional experience for sure. My emotional, yes, I got very emotionally attached to him, very protective, still am. I still like treat him like he's a collector edition of Briar's Horses. Like, you know, I think we all do that with our horses because we love them so much and they're beautiful. Kind of crazy animals. They do ridiculous things. But yes, as I elevated... The pressure, I got caught up in the, you know, the pressures, the angst, the expectations, the self-worth issues, the trust issues, the perfectionism. And I started seeing how that impacted my inability to optimize and to meet the expectations. So, yes, I would like self-sabotage. I definitely self-sabotage. And I still do. Like, even though I do this every day, I tell my clients, like, when I'm in the saddle, I'm a different person. I'm you. I'm right there with you. I understand how this works. I have to do this stuff, too. And it's constantly evolving. It's never – you never reach the end zone. It's always – it's a journey. It keeps growing and keeps evolving. The setbacks still come. Yeah, the sport is really, truly unique in that sense. And I think compared to a lot of other sports, I think, yes, other sports like have these setbacks moments, but our setbacks don't necessarily coincide with our horse, our partner and vice versa. Like we could be our highest, you know, our best mindset plays really thriving and then our horse is injured. Right. Or the opposite. And it adds a whole new layer, especially with a being that is on the sixth sense, on this, you know, that doesn't speak our language. It's a very different experience. And we're only communicating through our hearts, through our connection and aids. And it's, yes, it's a very different experience. So, yes, I definitely have mine that come up and they get mirrored frequently. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:10:27-00:11:26]
I want to discuss the topic of fear because I feel like that's a pretty big one within the equestrian space. Not only the fear of falling and getting hurt, also the fear of making mistakes and fear of failure. Like you had mentioned earlier about perfectionism and expectations, which is a really big weight that a lot of equestrians carry. So when we look at the idea of fear... And like you said earlier, we we love our horses so much, so much so that we alter our lives for them. We, you know, spend so much money and we dedicate so much time and so much energy to these animals. And yet we still have these feelings of fear. Why do you think that is like the kind of like the polarity of so much love and yet also the burden of of the fear in all the different realms?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:29-00:16:23]
I think some of it is socially constructed. Some of it is learned to keep us small. Some of it is also just not having a good understanding of our nervous system growing up. So then there's this like, you know, pop culture, pop psychology culture that that is available to everyone. And there's a lot of misunderstanding in it. And it's like playing telephone, you know, like when you're a kid and by the end you get to the end and you're like, how did that just transfer from that to that? So I think fear really... the fear really comes from all those misunderstandings and then misinterpretations of moments in our lives. Like it might, I'm still like mind boggled by this. Like, We don't teach kids how to manage their nervous system. We don't teach them about money. We don't teach them about grief. We don't teach them about love. These are all things that are going to happen in life, and yet we're teaching them about algebra, geometry, history, and they have to take all these courses, which are maybe fundamental, but So I think that's what's happening with the fear. The other thing about fear, too, is people don't we don't teach about it, so they don't understand it. But there's this big fascination in psychopathologizing people's reactions to events in their lives. And then people, because they want something to hold on to, I get a lot of clients that are like will literally tell me I am. and provide a diagnosis. And I even have professionals like healers telling me this too, a psychologist. And I'm like, you are not your diagnosis. You are so much more. You are this beautiful, optimal being. And so fear becomes the narrative. It's the narrative in our news. You know, we don't really hear about optimization and how to optimize or thrive. We hear a lot about PTSD, but we don't hear about post-growth to PTSD and post-traumatic stress disorder for people who don't know what PTSD is. You know, things like that. We're not a society that helps people elevate. We elevate. I'm very fascinated by fear and demise. So I tend to see the anxiety increasing in my junior riders around 13, 14, where they really start embodying that energy. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like, the other energy you have is so precious. It's so incredibly powerful, fun, the joy, the lightness, the effortlessness that you bring to life is, is what will help you optimize and thrive in your writing and in life. But yes. So then you have this programming that happens. So people feel, they learn to feel unsafe and it becomes a habit. And so then you, They start, you know, attracting conversations about, you know, maybe around the barn about anxiety or they tend to be attracted to pain points about horses, you know, things like that. So then they're just constantly like rewarding that state of mind, whereas it's the other state of mind that actually activates peak performance. I remember years ago with one of my trainers here in California, afterwards, we would all pick apart our mistakes and talk about them. And then I learned some more, and I was like, wait, you guys, we have to stop doing this. And it was kind of like we didn't know what to do with ourselves for a moment. It was like, but how do we talk about our lessons and evaluate our lessons if we don't know how to – You know, if we only know how to look at our lessons by itemizing our mistakes. So it's it's a shift. I think, you know, you go throughout life where you turn in papers and you get red marked over them. So and that's how we think of growth. And so that's how I think when we are around horses, it's just a natural tendency initially until people start learning more and start realizing, like, it doesn't have to be this way.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:25-00:19:42]
It's so interesting. This is unrelated yet related. Yes. My grandfather, he we just lost my grandmother at the beginning of the end of September. And my grandfather, he's 91. And so he when we were preparing her like eulogy and obituary and all of that, my grandfather was the one that was telling so many early stories of my grandmother of like growing up and those sorts of things that none of us, of course, knew because we weren't alive then. And my uncle said, he was like, we really have to start paying attention to what my grandfather is saying you know really start asking him questions because again being 91 at some point um we're gonna have to have a eulogy for him in an obituary and um we we need to know these early stories to be able to tell as well and so my uncle started saying about how when he was young um so my grandfather we call him papa so um he would say like Papa would never say, don't do that, or this is wrong, or anything like that. If my uncle or my dad or any of them ever said, I'm going to do this, my grandfather would always say, okay, you go ahead. And then when they would say that didn't work, he said, okay, well, I'm glad that you tried that, but here's another way. Or he would always say things like, you could do that, Or here's another suggestion. He would never tell them that they were wrong. And I've always noticed that, you know, being around them growing up about how helpful and positive they always are with things, you know, whether they're working in the vehicle or they're building, you know, a structure or something like that in the yard. And they're always just been really positive people. resources to grow up with. And I realized that it's because they were shaped by a father that never said don't do that or that was wrong. It was always you could do that. Here's another way. Or you tried that. Good job for trying. Here's another suggestion. And I just thought, wow, what a positive way to look at things in life. You know, the fact that, like you were saying, we're always examining what we did wrong. We ride in a lesson and it's always, oh, I should have done that better. You know, that turn could have been better. You know, whatever it might have been. It was never, but we did this right. Or like you said, the red marks on the tests, all of those things, those are the things we seem to focus on. It's never the, well, I tried this. Here's what I learned from it. You know, any of those different reframes that we have, and it just can create such a different shift in in how we approach growth and new opportunities or, you know, trial and error, all of those different things. So I love that you brought that up because it is such a shift for, I'm sure, many, many different spaces, but I feel like especially the equestrian industry.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:19:44-00:21:09]
Yeah. And I think you're pointing out, too, is like he he encouraged curiosity and curiosity. We've seen in research is linked to peak performance, high performance and optimization. And so, you know, allow that's a habit. That's like a skill that he taught your family, your your parents. That a lot of people aren't taught. There's a few schools that, you know, they're considered avant-garde because they teach curiosity. And I think, too, people forget, like, because they think, oh, they don't equate positive... and I say positive, you know, to encapsulate like so many different, like the freedom that he gave them, the connection, the curiosity, the trial and error. So it encapsulates all those ideas, but yeah, We don't equate that with discipline because we think of discipline as being very rigid and with the red marks and this is how it is. And yet that was an element of discipline. Like, go put on your boots, go get your hands dirty, go tinker around, and then come back and let's talk about it and let me offer you another suggestion. And that's incredibly powerful.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:09-00:22:16]
Yeah, it's like the discipline to... Like you had said, like to be curious, to want to do better, to improve. And that brings me to my next thing in terms of empowerment and how you build so much of your methodology and your work around the idea of empowerment for others. So I want to read something from your website today. says, I'm not the person that takes you to the deep end and pushes you in. Instead, I take you to the deep end and I teach you how to overcome your fear and make your own decision to jump in. And so when we look at that from that equestrian lens, I mean, I think almost every single one of us, you know, myself included in those listening can think of an experience where we feel like us or our horses or both were pushed. So can you explain your method of helping to switch that chemistry in the brain and therefore allow the rider to make the decision for themselves and how that's more impactful and empowering?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:17-00:24:57]
Yes, because I have to provide education. I have to provide knowledge that they don't have. And then it's your choice what you do with that knowledge. And usually the person will then decide how they jump in. Are they going to do a cannonball or are they going to like tiptoe in? And I come from that place to like, they know themselves better than I do. I'm just the passenger. I just get to... enjoy this very special moment with them I don't get to dictate how it unravels and that's also because I think I take into perspective that it's bigger than me like their story their life is bigger than me and I'm just like a mark like a piece of morsel in the moment and so if I push you into the deep end I'm making up all these assumptions and And I'm thinking I know everything about you, but I can't push you in. You might need floaties. And I didn't know that. You might not tell me that you don't know how to swim because you're embarrassed about it. So let me give you the tools. And I appreciate that, too. I've been pushed, too, so many times, I think. Yeah. So I rather like just my philosophy is like, here, let's talk about it. Let me give you all all the information I think is you might need to know. Ask me all the questions that you think you need a little bit more clarity on. And. Yeah, I'm I'm here with the floaties, the towel, like the beach ball, like and it's such an it's more of a powerful experience if you get to decide. And the moment you get to decide to is incredibly powerful. If I get to decide, then I take away so much of that, like you said, decision-making and that empowerment. And with horses, I think that's the disconnect too with a lot of adult Emmys and riders and competitors, athletes, is that we get to a point where we rely on our trainers to make that decision. But when you're competing, even if it's just one show a year, And it doesn't matter what discipline you are in reining or show jumper or Western dressage. It doesn't matter polo. You ultimately, when you're in that arena, you have to make those decisions on your own. So that's why I'm like, no, no, no. I'm trying to prime people to also develop that skill.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:58-00:25:42]
Hmm. And so, yeah, that I mean, you may have answered the question within there. So feel free to just say I already answered that. But when you look at that from a long term perspective, so maybe it's like I have this one situation that I'm struggling with and and I need help with this one situation. And then, you know, you guide the person to make their own decision and to have experience empowerment around that situation. But then that ultimately. would kind of create a trickle down effect to be long term, would it not? That, you know, other situations that arise, other decisions that have to be made, they have those tools and those resources to know, I did this before, I can do it again. Is that correct?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:43-00:26:58]
Yes. It's like basically teaching them to walk into the unknown, to also process their fear from a place of tools that they have now, and to then determine the level of agency. Because I think that's where fear develops is when... we don't fully understand it. And if you don't fully understand something, then you can't really truly assess it. And then a lot of times, too, people don't truly have a true understanding, a true assessment of their own capabilities and their own strengths. They have one of their weaknesses, but they also have misinterpretations of those weaknesses. And so I really try to bring clarity into that so that Throughout their life, whether it's with horses or in their work or relationships, they can start making those decisions through teaching them agency, I guess. So that's why they get to decide how they jump in the deep end. They can use a floaty if they want, or they can tiptoe in and... Yes, it has to work for them because if I do it, then honestly, then it's just temporary results. And what's the point of that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:59-00:27:13]
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Apart from fear, are there any other mindset blocks that you commonly see in riders and how do you help them shift them? Which is a loaded second question. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:14-00:28:27]
Good question. Perfectionism is also big, which is, I think, another element of it's related, a close related relative to fear. Comparison is huge. People not staying in their own lane and anxiety, like the need for control. Yeah. Those would be the other ones. Also, heartbreak, to be honest. I didn't even think of this until now, but grief, loss of grief from not just losing a horse or a beloved partner. But grief from not achieving goals, you know, or grief from loss within relationships or having to change farms, you know, or grief from the loss of a dream that they expected to. something to happen at this, in this one experience and it didn't happen. Um, so it also add grief too.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:28:29-00:28:50]
That's a big one. That's very unspoken about, like you said, the, the loss of, um, of a dream. Like, let's say you have an expectation and then the, the horse is injured, um, you know, or something like that. And, and it's often not spoken about, um, but it, but it is really impactful. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:52-00:28:52]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:28:54-00:29:06]
I'd love to find out a definition here. So you say neuropsychology, which is brain science and also heart science. Can you explain to us what you mean by heart science?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:08-00:31:20]
Oh, yes. So I got into heart science years ago when I was working at Santa Monica College. The HeartMath Institute came to us and gave us some protocols and said, use this with the college students here. We're just starting this out. We need to gather research. And that's when I really started delving more into it. And I think out of my own curiosity, and I'd always been told by my family, you're too emotional. You always lead with your heart. So automatically... That triggered me. In heart science, we know that your heart actually speaks more to your brain than vice versa. You know, from hormones, your vagus nerve, your heart rate, your energy field. There's all this new science that's new, but also I think, you know, transcendent from even yoga scriptures that we're not really taking into account when we're talking about horses and horses. I can't just do psychology on you because that still is a disconnect. It doesn't truly help you partner up with a being that operates on sixth sense. And, um, so if I can get people a little bit more connected to their heart, to their love, um, then they'll connect more with their horse. But also we've seen when people will ride from those places of gratitude, trust and care, um, peak performance happens because they start dropping the chemicals, the neurochemicals, the brain chemicals that prime you for your best ride. So, um, And it kind of, I think, it goes to this idea, too, that our brain is not fixed. So we have this idea, an old idea, that after a certain point of time, we can no longer really, like, expand our brain. And that's not true. And that heart connection actually expands neuroplasticity, the brain's ability to be flexible, to grow, to learn.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:20-00:31:59]
I mean, we've seen now with science even that 80-year-olds, 70-year-olds can still, activate neuroplasticity so it's really mind-boggling um so yeah I try to help people understand too the idea of calmness focus gratitude and how can they implement that and those aren't just to you know eradicate or support you through depression or anxiety they're really also there to optimize you and can we go a little bit deeper into that like how how does that help performance work Dr.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:59-00:35:02]
Joe Dispenza and Dr. Martin Seligman really started creating more research around this. And it falls under that positive psychology umbrella that I keep saying is kind of pop culture has, like, kind of lost its essence. But what it does in the body is it drops these chemicals, norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, all these good chemicals that reduce the level of anxiety in you, the cortisol. So then kind of like what your grandfather did, it kind of creates this like curiosity. And in curiosity, you don't really care if you make mistakes. Because you're so into this, like, oh, let me check this out. Let me check that out. So when the mistakes happen, you pivot. And in the angst and in the fear, you don't pivot. You'll self-sabotage because you'll be like, oh, my gosh, I just – you'll get into that perfectionistic attitude. Instead of being like, oh, I made a mistake. Okay, let me pivot. Let me just maybe add more legs or let me sit deeper in the saddle. What then ends up happening when you go into perfectionism, you will actually turn your body into immobilizing itself. It won't be able to activate, won't be able to put pressure on an aid. It won't be able to communicate with your horse. So then your horse is kind of like, hey, mom. I'm confused. What do you need me to do? And then they go, maybe if they're young, maybe they'll go into a fear response and think that there's something scary in the corner and spook and bug. And, you know, it kind of spirals in that way. So, yeah, it's it's and your heart rate is a horse. First of all, horses can spell hormones. you know, they can smell a Marin heat from like a mile away. So you can't tell me that your horses don't smell your cortisol levels and cortisol levels are your anxiety. And it's a hormone. Um, it's, So, yes, I think they definitely can smell your cortisol level. And it's acute to them that something's amiss, something's wrong. And sometimes I see it, like, with my hunter and jumper riders. They'll drop. I can actually see the cortisol dropping in their brain figuratively because they're Right before the jump, they're starting to pull back. They're telling the horse to slow down. They're starting to get more like this in the fetal position. Their leg comes off. And they're kind of like this deer in headlights. And the horse stops. And it's not stopping out of misbehavior. It's stopping because you told it to stop. You said this is unsafe for me. And so it's almost I I think and maybe I'll get rained on this, but don't come after me for this. But I do think some horses are trying to protect their riders and saying, OK, like.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:03-00:35:05]
You know, yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:05-00:35:49]
You know, yes, there are dirty stops sometimes, but sometimes it's not a dirty stop. It's really, you know, being this wonderful being that they are. And then I can see them the moment like this weekend. I had a client. I was with her and she had that happen. And then she walked away and picked up her canner again. And I could immediately see that she chose to stop the cortisol drop. And, um, her posture just changed. She just like, you know, just seemed more in her element, but there's a lot of love between her and her horse. There's a lot of curiosity, you know, and asking questions. Do I need to get that care?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:50-00:36:35]
Do you know, you know, I think that too is really important for me is if I can get someone into the, their heart more, they're going to start being curious, kind of like your family, um, story and then they're going to also start asking a little bit more questions about like the environment they're not going to start placing looking to place blame on themselves or the horse or the trainer or this person or that person they start like looking around themselves and being like oh okay um what else doing what else is missing in our equation that would help us thrive absolutely you mentioned that horses can smell hormones Is it also true that they can feel your heartbeat from seven feet away?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:35-00:36:38]
I would think so.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:38-00:36:40]
It was something like that. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:40-00:37:45]
Yeah. She's a good friend of mine, but she's an animal communicator. I had her talk to my horse years ago when I was at the Desert Horse Park at Thermal. And she's like, he's telling me your heart stops. And I was like, what? What? And I haven't fully asked him, but it was also around the time when I found out I had a heart murmur. So yes, I really do think there, we are not giving them enough credit. It's kind of like with our dogs, like we're really learning all this stuff about dogs and how they know when we're coming home. And it, there's all these elements that I think in our world where we're primed to disconnect from that after we get into adolescence, you know, it's a kid thing. But that's what makes our sport so beautiful and so magical is we can't walk away from that magic.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:46-00:38:14]
I love it so much. I just find it so fascinating. So there's also a part on your website that says that, No one wants to wait for results. I don't. And now we live in a world that is fast scrolling. It's instant gratification. It's, you know, all of the things. How do you balance rapid change with the deep embodied transformation?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:38:17-00:41:03]
Yeah, it's such a great question. So I think in that fast world, people tend to be it produces anxiety because people dissociate quite a bit. And dissociation means like you're leaving your body. You're not fully present. And what I'm talking about is getting you back into your body. So you have more like effective, coherent experiences and results. It doesn't mean that the work isn't hard and different. It just means that I'm going to help you reset so that you are in that heart centered place that you're not dissociating. A lot of times people, when they come to me, They're so dissociated because they're working, they're trying to raise a family, you know, they're in a career that doesn't really... they don't really love, but they're doing because it finances their lifestyle. But then they're what working 60 hours a week. And then 5% of their time is doing the things that they love. And so there's very little for them to like give and enjoy. And they look depleted. And I try to get them into this place where they can start filling up their cup more again. And that's where you're going to definitely have results because you're going to have, um, you're going to be more in alignment with your results. They're going to matter more. It's changing the mindset from going from a blue ribbon to an adjustable, effective ride that really brings you joy that you thought the blue ribbon would, but it doesn't. And it comes from this place of understanding that dopamine is the reward and motivational chemical that drops more during your journey trying to achieve something than it does when you actually achieve that goal. So when we achieve that goal, we tend to not drop the same amount of dopamine anymore. And it becomes almost like not an anticlimactic experience, but it doesn't feel as elated as we think it would that we imagine in our brain because our brain actually drops dopamine. a lot more throughout the experience. We get more excited and motivated when we conquer the challenges to finally get there. So that's where I try to utilize brain science with my clients so that they can feel all those things and the joy instead of dissociating.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:04-00:42:01]
Yeah. And like you said, like the association is so real and it shows up in so many different ways. Like I find that I I'll be doing something and maybe it's a little challenging. Maybe it'll be work related. Maybe it'll be, you know, whatever it might be. And the next thing I know, I'm like, well, how am I on my phone? Like, you know, and it's almost like suddenly rather than dealing with the difficult thing. you'll grab your phone and you'll just start scrolling. It's like, and it, to me, that's my realization that, oh, I think I'm, I think I'm just trying to disassociate from what's in front of me. I mean, maybe that's a different definition of it or a different like situation of it, but, but I just see that we have, it seems to me at least that we have a lot of opportunity now to disassociate. with the stress of our lives or the quote stress of our lives that we kind of put on ourselves and all of the different distractions that are coming up.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:03-00:44:04]
Well, and that too, so what's happening there too is, so you're feeling overwhelmed. You have this experience in front of you. So you go to your phone because it's an actual instant dopamine fix. So you don't know. So there's all these different rates of reward. And the one that's the most powerful in determining behavior is the one that mimics gambling. And so if you think about Instagram, it's very much like that because you don't know when you'll get that hit of dopamine. It's like playing the slot machines, right? You keep scrolling. So you're looking for that quick dopamine fix maybe to help you then go back and feel motivated in order to do whatever it is. Or yes, the dopamine keeps you distracted and makes you feel better. Yeah, and I think it's learning how to – and it's for me, too. It's learning how to sit in that discomfort and work through it so that we can create that dopamine hit when we're on our horses going through challenges and having hard lessons. Instead of, like you said, what you're kind of doing is escaping, dissociating. Yeah, and that's a muscle. Like, all of this is a muscle, and that's why – You know, I think with horses, people get caught up in the performance culture that is our world. And with horses, it's more about being present. It's this presence culture. And that's why it's so fascinating to watch the Grand Prix or to watch the Olympics or to watch, you know, Rainers at the Million Dollar in Vegas. Yeah. who are at the top of their craft is because they're so in that presence and they make it look so effortless and beautiful, you know, that is flow state. That is peak performance at its finest.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:04-00:44:28]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is why I just think your work is so important. I just, there's so many assets, like aspects of it that, are supportive to equestrians in not just equestrian life, also just in daily life in general, like you said, like so many tools and further toolkits and resources and things like that, that they can then bring to their work and their relationships, etc.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:29-00:44:29]
Yes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:30-00:44:42]
So how do you help riders build habits that support mental strength, clarity and connection, rather than what many of us may assume is just putting in more training hours, more time in the saddle?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:43-00:49:23]
Great question. It's a lot of just education. My sessions are very solution focused and very about I want people leaning empowered and feeling like they can try something that's new. And so it's not a therapy where we deconstruct, you know, their past. And yes, past may come up, but we're not going to sit there and pull apart. We'll use it to help strategize how to optimize the client and their needs. And so the first two, I do a package of eight sessions and the first two over six months. So there's not like the first two are scheduled sessions because I really try to give people the foundation information. And not everyone gets the same foundational content. It's very geared to the person and what comes up in conversation. And then it also is geared towards their training program and obviously to their horse. And then they get to go try it out. And then their other sessions are more on demand because with horses, everything is spontaneous and serendipitous. the way I understand the brain and from my research and learning is that, um, I want access to my client when they're in their struggle. I don't want them coming to me three days later, having processed it in this habit loop that doesn't serve them. That's created these habits that don't optimize. So I have to build that trust with them in those two foundational sessions. And then that intro call and, um, really show them that I care and that I'm on their team so that they feel safe enough when they're there to call me, to text me and be like, Pernilla, like, you know, I'm at a horse show and I totally freezed and I had to walk around for a half hour before I was able to go back in and do another round at a lower level. There's a lot of humility in there and a lot of humility in that experience and So the sessions are on demand, and it's not to develop a crutch, but it's also for me to do the neuropsychology shifts that, A, they might not be aware of because they're so intimately tied to the experience. But also when our memory is fallible, it's 80 to 90 percent fallible. So if you come back to me a week later at a scheduled time, then you're going your brain is automatically going to create a storyline that most likely obviously is not true. So I want to – so I make myself available to my clients who I work with closely and try to remind them about, like, the heart science stuff. You know, it's very – it's it's tools that are so curiously producing so they get hooked on it they're like oh I'll try that but um not hard like they don't need to sit down and write this all out or it's in the moment like there are tools in the moment that they can use um And a lot of times it's helping them create the discipline so that they can do it on their own later too. So if they have accountability with me over time, they'll start doing this on their own. And then when they up-level, because they will up-level, the universe is going to send you a more difficult experience. So that's what people don't really understand is they think like once they reach their goals, hallelujah, they've made it. Yeah. You know, the journey is going to be easy from there, but it doesn't. It actually gets harder from there because the margin for error gets smaller. It's like when jumps go up for my 100 jumpers, like when jumps go up, the margin of error gets smaller and smaller and your age has to be faster and faster and you have to be more present. It demands more of you. So that's why I make it this way so that I can be there through that journey with them. so that they can translate the work. Because I think that's the biggest disconnect I've seen. And people, when they have a scheduled session, they don't learn to advocate for themselves in the moment, to use the agency, to fine-tune those things. They talk about it retrospectively instead of in it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:25-00:50:11]
I love that so much. I love, like you had said, like the on demand so that they're not processing it and then being in that habit loop that hasn't been serving them any other times that they've attempted to process something. I just I love that so much. So for a listener who maybe is new to your work, also if you are new to Pernilla's work, I highly suggest you follow her on Instagram. We were talking before we started recording about how much I love her posts. So highly recommend. We'll link it in the show notes. But for someone who may be new but is curious, what is a simple mindset practice that they could start doing today to connect more deeply with themselves and their horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:13-00:53:28]
so many things I want to share okay I might have to share two but the first one is honestly spending more time on the ground with your horse really before you get on is that all possible like really being in the stall like really like just being there in that moment with them And talking to them, because I think too, people believe that they can fake it with their horse. So they come in after a hard day's work or a hard day at school, or maybe they got triggered by someone at the barn or whatever. And they pretend everything's okay, but your horse demands presence. It demands authenticity, and it actually feels safer in authenticity, plus you create a deeper connection in authenticity. Whereas in our everyday world, we tend to walk around with a big mask on that we don't really ever take off, even with our best friends or parents or family members. So really taking it off with your horse and really just being like, yeah, this is me. Because then the horse can actually, and you, you'll perform better because you'll be more connected. You'll have a better ride, whether it's just a leisure ride, a trail ride, or in a lesson. I think that would be my biggest take. My next one would be... if you're struggling more with like performance angst, let go of like the confidence words and the positive psychology words and just like Center on like if you feel like you're about to take a lesson and you're going to take a jump school or you are taking a reigning lesson and you have to come to a full stop and that's making you anxious because of an old injury or performance anxiety. Look around you and just name objects. So like I'll have my clients who are at horse shows. I'll just say count the standards and just do it until you're You're totally bored and you're cursing me under your breath and telling me how bored you are. That will slow down the anxiety, the cortisol roll, and start helping you perform and not get you in that like overwhelmed feel. You'll be more present. And it's usually a lot of times the brain is looking for something. And so it automatically goes to anxiety because it comes becomes a habit loop to give it something to distract it, like give it something to do. That's what it wants to do. It wants it has all this energy. It wants to work. So let it work. Kind of like a spooky horse, right? Like you're going to make it work. You're going to keep it moving underneath you so it can process all that angst. And the same thing with your brain. So do something like counting the standards or counting the trees, naming colors, green, blue, like just very simple stuff.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:28-00:53:44]
Yeah. Yeah, I'm just I'm taking this all in. So I feel like I said, I love that, like every single response. But I just I really do. I'm just really enjoying this conversation for my own benefit.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:45-00:53:47]
Good. Good.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:47-00:53:60]
As you should. So we have four rapid fire questions that we ask every podcast guest. It's just like the first thing that pops into your mind. The first one is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:02-00:55:00]
Um, oh gosh. Do I have, I probably do. Oh my gosh. I'm blanking because you said rapid fire. See you activated. It can be like a slow burn as well. Um, um, I think, okay, so if I'm on a horse show, I'll say it's just flat work. It's just flat work in between jumps. It is. And that gets me going. Yeah. I think also a motto. It's fun. I say that a lot. I'll just say it's fun. And it just kind of like takes me out of my. perfectionism and fears and expectation.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:01-00:55:06]
Yeah. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:08-00:55:35]
Uh, I would have to say a really good friend of mine, Becca Swan, who I train with also we're really good friends and we're also, she's been a trainer here and there throughout my life. Uh, we were pipsqueaks when we met. Um, but you know, I share my expertise with her. She shares, it's just like, it's really cool. It's fun. It's just, um, and then I would probably say my horse is my greatest teacher in the world.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:36-00:55:52]
Yes, absolutely. I love when there's the amount of people that have their horse as like the most influential person. It's so funny. I'm like, yeah, it's true. The next one, if you could give equestrians one piece of advice, apart from what you've already given, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:53-00:56:00]
Don't chase control. Don't chase the ribbon. Chase your connection. Love that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:01-00:56:05]
Please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:06-00:56:07]
My Compass.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:08-00:56:09]
Oh, I love that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:09-00:56:10]
I haven't heard that one.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:10-00:56:17]
That's so good. Pranila, where can people find you? How can they connect with you, learn more about you, all the things?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:18-00:57:04]
Um, yes, Instagram, drpernillanathan.com. That's a mouth load for people. I know, um, definitely there. And there's links to my website and landing pages. I have two workbooks on anxiety, a four week program, and then just a generalized confidence workbook that is accessible. Also, my website is drpernillanathan.com. Yeah, if they just like put in my name, Google, a ton of stuff will show up. And I do answer my DMs. I really make a point. It does take me a few days because I do burn out with Instagram. But yes, people can DM me too. And I'm always happy to try to answer and help them.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:05-00:57:23]
Awesome. So we'll put the link to the Instagram and the website in the show notes. If you're listening and you want more information, just scroll down and you can find it. Thank you so much for being with me today. This is such a pleasure speaking with you. And I personally took a lot away from it. So thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:24-00:57:30]
Yeah, thank you. Those were amazing questions. And I just, yeah, that was really beautiful. So thank you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:32-00:58:05]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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