#93 Equine Taping Made Simple with Rebecca Haddock

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:01-00:00:08]
In this episode, we're talking with Rebecca Haddock, author, educator, and innovator in equine taping.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:09-00:00:26]
The tape, when you apply it correctly, is doing nothing but communicating with the receptors to do a list of things. It is simply communicating with the receptors that live in your skin, your hair root plexus, that surface layer of fascia.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:27-00:01:32]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Rebecca Haddock is a trailblazer in equine taping with over 30 years of hands-on experience in the horse industry. She's the owner and president of Equitex Equine Technologies Institute, a certified EEKT and EEBT practitioner, and the author of Stick with Success, Equine Functional Taping Made Simple. Rebecca is known for blending science-based expertise with ranch-tested wisdom and humor, making her teaching both practical and engaging. Her work has transformed equine wellness education from developing the first scientifically researched equine tape to creating innovative training programs now used in over 26 countries. Today we'll be discussing what equine taping is, when and why to use it, how it can benefit every horse, and so much more. So let's get started. Rebecca, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm super excited to chat with you today.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:33-00:01:34]
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:35-00:01:46]
So can you tell us the origin story? I always like starting at the beginning, obviously the start of the podcast, the start of the story. So what is the origin story of your business? How did you get started with all of this?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:47-00:14:32]
Oh, that's a good story. And it starts for me as a super young kiddo, six years old, fell in love with a horse, and there goes my world. I've spent my life with horses. I've been a small business owner since I was 19. And I was really motivated to provide for myself and to make a way. And I couldn't think of anything better than spending my life with horses. Like I remember the first time I smelled a horse and I was like, oh, that's the most intoxicating smell ever, you know. And so I was like, I just want to spend my life with horses. And I tried, you know, but you have to pay the bills. So I did a lot of different things, but I was always working with horses, started out training horses, working with different trainers themselves, just tacking up or, you know, learning from them and starting to do different rides and things like that. And then I became very, very good at colt starting. So I went to purely colt starting. I had the most difficult horse I had ever experienced in my entire life. She's a year and a half and the most aggressive, dangerous mare ever. And her owner was terrified of her and nobody wanted to touch her. And so they gave her to me. Because they were like, you're the only one who could possibly handle this horse in their specific sphere of influence and community. And that forced me to learn to train very differently, right? Because I was in a certain school of this is how you start a horse and sacking out and hobbling and all this stuff. And yeah, this mare wasn't going to have it. She'd kill you. And so I started reading all the old greats and natural horsemanship and kind of the development of the horse's brain and psychology. And I was like, OK, so so I started her in the sphere of everything that we do has to be her choice. Right. And that turned me into a completely different person. Like, not just a different horse trainer, but a different person. I started to pick up on their language. How did they speak to us? How they speak to each other? And so... she now is my heart horse, Jetta, and she's on all of our packaging. And if you see me teaching and videos nine times out of 10, it's going to be her, the big girl, your mare. She's now 18 phenomenal mare lover, super sweet. And my kid jumps on her with no tack on her all of the time. So, you know, if you ever experienced a horse like that, do not give up. Right. So anyways, as I, as the community figured out that I had, been able to take this very aggressive, dominant, you know, she tried to kill quite a few people by the time I got to her at a year and a half. So then I started getting the big daddy trainers. Like, you know, I won't say their names, but they would send me their colts to start so that, you know, fratuity would go smoother, things like that. And, of course, once you're known for colt starting, everybody thinks, well, you can fix problem horses, right? And you're like, yeah, because they're the same. Because they're not. You know, a colt has not been messed up by a human. A colt has no bad experiences. And horses have great memories. So they carry those experiences through. Whereas a problem horse, you know, I've said it. Horses, you don't have problem horses. You have pain or you have a people problem. You don't have a horse problem. Right. So here I'm. Saying, fine, I'll take this problem horse because I understand that that could become very difficult situations. And while it's not the same as colt starting, okay, I'll put myself to the challenge. And I had done so much studying on equine psychology anyways that, like, okay, I know I can communicate with them at least. But each horse that I would do a physical scan on had pain. And so then it was like, OK, well, I have to fix the pain before I can fix the horse. And then that becomes really expensive between you. Veterinary care, diagnostics, exams, things like that, chiropractic care, body workers, farriers, the whole nine. Acupuncture. I mean, the list goes on and on. We could sit here and go through a list of modalities. And shoot, I saw a post the other day on social media. This girl, she's trying to compete in dressage out here in Wellington, right? That's an expensive sport, number one. And number two, that's an expensive area. And she asked the community, like, how can people afford this? Like, this is what the vet said. It's going to cost just for me to keep my horse in the ring. And so I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way. And, of course, my brain was like, well, yeah, just learn how to do it all yourself. Thus started the world that I am now in. So I learned everything I could possibly learn. I interned with vets, chiropractors, body workers. I studied and studied and studied so much studying on anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, every kind of modality out there, the science behind it. And I am a scientist at heart. I've always loved the STEM fields and excelled in those fields. So it was like my second coming home. And so that led me down the road to where I became a rehab specialist in the area. So I was fixing some of the unfixables and, um, This is about the time where equine kinesiology taping was just coming out. So in between 2009 and 2012, you had about four or five major people hit the scene with equine kinesiology taping. So who was first? We don't know. I mean, I've seen documents going back, like I said, to 2009. Um, but it was, it was starting to hit the field in equine healthcare. And, um, That's about the time I started working with kinesiology tape, right? Now, I say kinesiology tape, but in the book, I'm going to redefine the tape. So we might as well just define it now. Kinesiology is the study of the body and movement, right? So kinesiology tape, the body and movement tape, it was given that name because Dr. Kenzo Case, he's the original creator of kinesiology, the modality, right? Mm-hmm. And this is the modality basically being putting a stretchy piece of fabric with an adhesive backing on the body, right? Human body. And so that was... He named it that. And it just it's kind of been there. It modality split off in different factions. You went into biomechanics. And so they call that tape dynamic tape. But people like to name things after the thing they create. Right. And so it is. uh let me make it as as easy to understand for the audience as possible you have one kind of tape that stretches in we call it one direction and so it stretches lengthwise that's a two-way stretch tape all right let's just label it what it is and then you have another kind of tape that stretches length width it also stretches diagonally but four-way stretch tape okay so um In the development of kinesiology back in the 70s and kinesiology taping, because that's what he named it, then by 2009, 2010, 11, 12, we start seeing documents of taping on horses. So I started taping horses quite early, 2011, 2012. So I was in that first group. And the reason I was doing it is because There was a mare with this massive gash in her flank that would not hold stitches, and it would not heal. And I was like, I mean, what else can we do? We had stitched it multiple times. We had done all the traditional stuff and red light and this, that, and the other, and it's just not coming together. And so I taped it, and I was shocked at how quickly it healed. And so then I was like, okay, I want to learn as much as possible. But at that point in time, there was not a lot of information out there. That's when I met Dr. Gordon, who – is the owner of the EquiTape trademark. And I became a partner with her very early. And we were partners at EquiTape for years. And then I bought EquiTape from her. She retained the trademark. And during that period of time, we released the modality, equine kinesiology taping, but I would say it didn't really start picking up. Rock Tape came out with something similar. Wendy Cohen worked with Rock Tape. She's a phenomenal human being. I know her quite well. We used to lecture together. We still do it. They have UCA every year, American Veterinary and Chiropractic Association, the conference they do. So she was with Rock Tape. You had Vetkin coming out with their own version of the modality. You had Dr. Gordon and Angel with Angel's Holistic. What is her company? I can't remember. Your audience may trigger a memory of it. But Angel, she was working with Dr. Gordon at KT Tape. And so here you have these different people working within these bigger companies that were starting to develop this modality. So I worked with Dr. Gordon in Equitape, and we developed the modality. And the modality is built off of a lot of different principles, right? So my company, Equitex, came out of that because – My drive for science and things being backed up by science is huge. The more we studied, the more we were finding issues in the modality. Right. So in the beginning, all scientists do this. We we make a theory. We have information here. And we theorize what it will do, what the outcome will do. Right. And so that's what the modality really was. It was a theory. And over time and over clinical tests and field research and case studies and things like that, some of those deductions that really scientifically seem to make sense on paper were not coming out the same way in the field. And so that's one of the biggest reasons I split from Equitape is too much of the modality would have to change for it to make sense. And it was just a kind of a head collision between me and the powers that would be. And so now, you know, that transition of a horse trainer into basically a rehab specialist into the world's expert in equine kinesiology and biomechanics taping is now trailblazing again with another modality. So this will be my third modality, but this is so science backed that it's quite exciting. So that's my origin to now. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:14:33-00:14:50]
I want to go into that, like the current place that we're at. So first of all, let's do a little bit of specificity here for our listeners who may not be familiar with equine taping. Like what is equine tape and what does it help horses with? Let's start there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:14:51-00:16:20]
Sure. So the tape itself, there's lots of different recipes and the way that you can build it. And every tape company kind of has their own. And so generally speaking for two way stretch tape, it's going to be a heavy cotton and light on nylon blend of fabric stretches up and down, right? Lengthwise. And your backing is the adhesive is some type of latex medical grade adhesive. OK, so that's what it is. And then you have your four way stretch tape, which is completely synthetic so that it has all of that different stretchability in it. And then you have another. adhesive on it. And there's not a single company is going to make it other than latex free medical grade, right? Because it's going on the body. It needs to be there. Some companies are super good about using surgical grade. Others are not. And so for yourselves, for your human bodies, definitely pay attention to if it's that surgical grade. And so horses as well. So that's what it structurally is. I mean, I know the world likes to make things very complicated, but it's as simple as a stretchy piece of fabric with adhesive on the back. OK, so what can it do? So I have a 16 hour course on this.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:20-00:16:24]
We're going to condense that down.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:24-00:23:14]
We're going to do that. And not that y'all wouldn't love to hear it. I just don't think we want to sit here for 16 hours right now. Yeah. OK, so let's take a look to the most basic principle and what science proves. OK, so we're just going to deal with what science proves and we're going to leave anything that's deductive or unproven outside of this box. OK, your skin is so full of receptors, right? Um, your skin can communicate with your brain faster than your heart can beat and send signals to your muscles without you thinking about it. Think about when you touch something hot, you don't have to tell yourself to pull your hand back. There's an instant mechanical response that happens, right? So the tape, when you apply it correctly, um, is doing nothing but communicating with the receptors to do a list of things. Now, this is your two-way stretch tape, so let me be clear about that. It is simply communicating with the receptors that live in your skin, your hair root plexus, that surface layer of fascia. Now, your fascia has so many nerves in it and so many receptors in it because your skin is a second brain. Your skin is how you interact with the world. And so all of this sensory information that you're gathering, plus the memories that live in your cells, so memory doesn't live in your brain, it lives in your cells. It's taking from infancy to today, all of this gathered knowledge about what you're experiencing and what does it actually mean. So the brain can do things like make you sweat so you cool down, make you shiver so you heat up, Remove your hand from something hot or electric, things like that, where you don't have to process that. Your brain does it on its own. And so we're utilizing the stretch and the communication of the receptors in these different layers, your epidermis, your hair root plexus into your fascia. to communicate with your body to do something, right? Maybe you have a hypertonic muscle, a muscle that's constantly in spasm. We can communicate with the receptors to get a GTO response, which is a Golgi tendon organ response that let go, lengthen, right? Maybe you have a muscle that's just underdeveloped and it's very hard for you to do physical therapy or normal things. Maybe you broke a leg or something like that and now you have an underdeveloped muscle. And so you can communicate in the opposite way and you can communicate with the spindle fibers that live in your muscle that cause contraction. Let's say contract, contract, right? You can communicate with to calm down, right? So there's quite a list of things. Neurologic, obviously mechanoreceptors for flexing, relaxing, things like that. Nerves, as far as like deep breathing, Organs like reproductive organs, stomach, all of that. So you communicate that way. You can create new neural pathways in horses that have experienced trauma, you know, C-spine trauma that causes trauma. Balance issues in the front end, things like that, or trauma in the spine from maybe a parasite or a toxic plant that causes balance and issues in the hidewind, your sidewinders, your string holds, things like that. And all of that, you can start creating new neural pathways. Like we have research, clinical research that shows that after trauma like that, you can create a new neural pathway and get function back. And so you can do things like that. Pain relief. It's one of the most important pieces of a two-way stretch tape because your pain receptors are just in the epidermis of your skin. You do have some nociceptors. Nociception is the receptors that experience pain. They understand pain. Proprioception is just how you deal with the world. So those can live further down, but for the most part, it's in your epidermis. So when you decompress pressure on those sensors it removes pain right so it's extremely pain removing and so you can use it for that if we switch into our four-way stretch tape you can do things like stabilizing the spine supporting joints tendons ligaments biomechanic you can actually use leverage of the body and biomechanically hold a horse in a particular position that they need to be in You can limit mobility by doing this. And so. That's where we are now is there's a massive world that's been opened up and it has a lot to do with the past seven years of my research. It just, I wanted to know why I wanted to know how far it would go. And this is why kind of that split off of kinesiology, because all of the research is pointing away from the principle of kinesiology, which the principle of kinesiology is that we're not interfering with the body and we're We're doing a lot of this stuff with natural range of motion. But the science shows that we are absolutely interfering with the body. And we are, in fact, especially when you need to, limiting range of motion. And there are many, many times that you want to limit range of motion, right? Imagine a world where you don't have to lock your horse in place. solitary confinement in a 10 by 10 stall, which causes psychosis within the first 48 hours of them being in there, right? Taking them away from the herd, which causes massive amounts of anxiety, right? We know that muscle atrophy starts happening within 24 hours. We know that bone density starts being removed out of your horse. Your horse's bones get brittle by being stalled, right? So imagine a world where we don't have to stall them, but I can limit their range of motion so they don't continue to injure that tear further, right? So the science has shown me that it It's quite different than the original thought process of what kinesiology is, or at least kinesiology taping. So that's why I refer to it as equine taping or functional taping, right? Because we're functionally doing something. We are interfering, but we're doing it in the right way for that positive outcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:23:15-00:23:42]
Okay, I have no idea about any of this. I was thinking it was more of what you had said, the biomechanic perspective of it, where it's like you're putting something on to influence posture in a way, right? Like to influence the way that the body is held or the way that the body is moving. And so when you're saying all these other things, I was like, what?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:42-00:24:16]
Exactly. You should see the faces when I lecture because, you know, I'm the only race approved person in my field. So race is the governing body for the United States vets. Right. They're the ones who say you can take this education for your CEs. It's huge. And I'm the only person who's approved to teach kinesiology, biomechanics taping or functional taping in the United States to vets.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:17-00:25:01]
And when these vets sit in my lecture and I'm showing them the science behind it and hundreds of case studies proving it, they're like, eyes bulging out of their head um yeah you know you're not the only one so don't feel bad about that yeah thank you that's the direction i want to go in for the next couple of questions is this idea of like the misunderstandings or the lack of awareness so when you first started um you know teaching these courses in this way what were some of the like the hurdles the um Maybe the backlash or anything like that. Like, did you come up against any of that?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:02-00:26:37]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's start. Let's start with what all new modalities first have to deal with when you go into the public. First and foremost, yeah. Biggest question you'll get is, do you have any proof? OK, so. Biggest hurdle that you have in anything to do with animal testing. And we're talking about. Ethical animal testing, we're not talking about. Yeah. So they can't sign a form giving informed consent. There are tests that are absolutely not ethical to do on them to try and prove something. As a human, I can go in, understand that I'm being tested for something and that I have to do five blood draws in one day. There is no way you're ever going to explain that to a horse. So doing that kind of testing to them is just, it's inhumane. Muscle biopsies, MRIs, CAT scans. As a human, you can lay in an MRI machine. You can do your six count breathing to keep your mind calm as you lay in a tube. You can't do that with a horse. You have to sedate a horse. So you have all kinds of health risks that come on sedating an animal to put them in an MRI machine. Right. Plus, we only have two MRI machines in the United States. I don't know how many you have.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:38-00:26:41]
So I'm in Canada, so probably less.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:42-00:37:24]
Right. You know, we have some of the biggest equine facilities in the U.S., you know, Wellington and the World Equestrian Center and stuff like that. We have two MRIs in the entire country that can fit a horse in it. Right. So. The problem that all new modalities have in the beginning is can you prove it? So, again, I'm going to refer back to what I had said earlier. As a scientist, we start with information, we create a theory, and then our goal is to get to a theory. And let's define theory to people like gravity is still a theory. Right. It just hasn't been unproven. Right. So everything is a theory. It's just how strong is your theory? How much evidence do you have to back it up? So the first part is always that. Can you prove it? Can you prove it? Can you prove it? And, you know, there were human studies. And then the animal world says, well, We're taping horses, not humans. I don't want to see a human study. OK, so let's clarify that. Right. If I can't get a horse's informed consent and I can't do the diagnostics that show me inside of the body. Clinical research, what am I left with? I'm left with the outcome. Right. OK. So in a study, a clinical study. One of the biggest problems you have in equine research is that our study groups are super small, right? In humans, I can get a study group of thousands. In horses, I'll be lucky to get 10. Why? Well, you have to find 10 horses that are relatively the same. Same breed, same age, same height, same injury. And now we have to test all 10 of them. And now we're going to add one more very difficult step into the process, which is a control group, which drives me insane, okay? Horses cannot be placeboed. So what's the point of a control group? There is no point of a control group, right? So we take human study principles, then we try and put it on horses to get an outcome, but... But you can't do any of the clinical part of the human study. So largely, these modalities are very much based off of human studies for all of those reasons. It's just it's not ethical for us to study them the same way. So you need time for a modality to build case studies. This is one of the best ways because it's always outcome-based. And while the variables may be across the board, it may be different genders, different breeds, different ages, different lifestyles, different, different, different. But the injury is the same. And if I have 2,000 practitioners across the world that are all required to do that same case study on that same injury, I get 2,000 outcomes. That's how I've built all the way to functional taping is I have thousands and thousands of case studies. So we base it off of the outcome now is. And then when I have enough outcome, I have enough case studies that show me the same outcome repeatedly. Then I can go and I can clinically test it. But at this stage, you're looking at. you know, 10 years, 10 years deep to get enough case studies. Field research is another way to put it, to be able to go into a clinical study and know what you're studying, right? You have to know what you're studying. The first round of equine kinesiology or equine biomechanics taping or equine taping period in clinical research showed no change, right? No significant change. So in clinical research, we have two outcomes. We have significant, insignificant. You can have a change and it still be considered insignificant because maybe you didn't control the variables enough, right? So to get to significant is pretty good. So we had insignificant research for a lot of reasons. Well, first, people didn't understand what taping was doing. So they put a piece of tape on the horse, take the piece of tape off, put the horse on a treadmill and go, nothing changed. Right. So these were the research studies to now over the past, say, I mean, I did my stability study in. Do I think it was like 2014 or 15? So from there until now, we've started studying very carefully. Like there was a study done on utilizing the mechanoreceptors to cause that spindle fiber response, activate a muscle. And we activated the external abdominal obliques, showing that in that, if you activate the external abdominal obliques of a horse, which is your horse's core muscles, that they will get more longitudinal stride within their trot. meaning they get more air. That's exactly what we want them to do. If they grab that core, engage that core, it sucks their hind end in, and they can get up further within their beautiful trot, gives them more lift. They can lift their shoulders and their heads. And that study showed significant change, right? So once we got through case studies enough, enough field research to say this is it, then now we can start putting out there that, This is what we need to study clinically. And now we know exactly what we're looking for. And that's been quite interesting because some of the studies that have come out is like basket weaves don't work. People will tell you they work, basket weave, to remove inflammation. It's where you, like, put a fan cut, and then you put another fan cut going cross-sectional, so you get, like, a basket, like, supposed to remove inflammation. Over the past four years, we've proven that, no, it will stop inflammation from leaving, that you actually have to do just one fan cut, lymphatic pull, pull it all the way up. So... your biggest hurdles, the things that are the hardest to overcome is proving your theory. It's always going to be proving your theory. But that's the most exciting part for me. And that's what I'm constantly testing and testing and testing. And I think that's why my customers, my followers, and the community itself, not just the veterinary community, chiropractic, body workers, um, love me so much is because i'm always hungering after the research i want i and and if i get something that says no this doesn't work the outcome is not what we thought it would be okay that thing goes away i'm not attached to it like um but the problem is that a lot of these kinesiology companies are attached to what they've been teaching for coming on 20 years now well right Get over it. Like, let it go. Let's do what's best for the horse. So those are some of the issues I get. You know, I have the most wonderful trolls on social media. So hello, trolls, if you're out there listening. You know, things like snake oil or I'm just using fancy marketing language to sell people something that doesn't work. A lot of that. And so I think that's another reason why the case studies on my website that we're really working hard to get back put together and all of that, because with the launch of functional taping, Everything that I've proven doesn't work is going away and everything that has scientific backing is, you know, moving forward. And so I will have a Web page completely devoted to the thousands and thousands of case studies. Right. So that's one of it. And I think that's just skepticism. I think as equestrians, those who actually have horses, you know. We're. we are the other breed. Like you, we just are, you know, it's, it's a question. Um, we're naturally skeptical, right? I don't want to use it on my horse unless I know it's going to work. I don't want to hurt my horse, all that stuff. So, um, healthy level skepticism is fine, but just, um, It's basing an idea because, well, I've always done it this way. I hear that about my abscess protocol. Well, I've always done it this way. OK, well, this one is, you know, by field research shown to. remove the horse's abscess or help it blow out faster, um, down to, you know, eight days consistently over and over. So you may have always done it that way, but why not try something that, uh, can, you know, increase healing speed at a rate that would just blow your mind. Um, so get a lot of that. Um, other, and honestly, scientifically in the field, um, anything that you do that tapes takes away from pharmaceutical, you know, you'll get the backlash from that as well. And I get it from the vets. I mean, I had a, I have a wonderful vet that, um, she comes and does the stuff that I need her to do here. And, um, you know, I love that we get in healthy debate every time she's here. You know, if her new, um, arthritic round of injections on a horse can produce an outcome in four to six weeks. And my support taping protocol produces the same outcome in four to six weeks. Why are we injecting a horse? Right. So her and I get in really like healthy debates over that. So, um, I get it from a lot of different sides, you know, and I think that, um, but that's the the cool part of it as well you know there's always as long as there's healthy debate right and it doesn't turn nasty and um and destruction and people trying to silence you and things like that which i have also dealt with as i develop and release once i released biomechanics i was threatened to silence what i was doing um right up front so and you definitely get it from all the different sides Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:24-00:37:58]
I feel like almost every single person that's been on the podcast in whatever realm of the industry that they're working in has had significant backlash, whether it's a training methodology or a product or whatever it might be. So with the case studies that you had mentioned earlier, Do you have one that comes to mind that you can share with our audience, whether it's a case study or a success story that showcases the transformational potential of the taping?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:38:00-00:41:46]
Oh, yeah. So many. So many, many. And I'll tell you, each section of my book, I highlight this. So I will give you a real world, real horse. and the outcome of it. And they're, they're amazing. Some of them are heart wrenching, make you want to cry. So yes. And, you know, lots of different areas. Okay. So one of the areas that I found really exciting to work in is the immune system. Can I, through a stretchy piece of fabric and adhesive systemically affect the body and and activate a horse's immune system? Well, I always thought, I always thought, yes. But I had no... Like, it's really hard to to take this theory and try and test it. Right. You have to have immune compromised horses and then immune compromised horses that a horse owner is going to be like, yeah, sure. Try this random thing kind of thing. Right. But through the different studies that I was doing and. different ideas that was forming and then like my horses as I would see them deal with something like uh one of my horses he cannot use natural fly spray he breaks out in hives um you know so I've I've tried it on him and it helped all the hives kind of go away really quick without having to give him an antihistamine stuff like that so you know I tried little things um but A horse in Australia, her and her paddock mate got out of the paddock into the highway, was hit by a car. Oh, my gosh. And the paddock mate died there on the site. She did not. She was transferred to an equine facility. And, you know, the vets and the vet techs there did everything they could. And I'll show you the combat nurses there. did everything that they could and the horse was just crashing all the vitals just tanking and the owner called a practitioner there in Australia and said, you know, just Hail Mary. Is there anything you can think of? And she said, let me call Rebecca. So I get this phone call in the middle of the night. Hey, Rebecca, this is what's going on. Ideas. And I was like, absolutely. We have ideas. Let's go. At this point in time, The horse is dying, right? Why not try? So I teach a simple application I call immune, and it's just a decompression over the lymph basin. So there are major lymph basin in the horse's body. You've got a couple in the neck, a couple in the shoulders, a couple right in front of the hip. I had her decompress each lymph basin, so all six, right? and then run the lymphatic chain from the foot into the core, around the back, up the neck, through the head. A massive, massive application. Within 45 minutes, her heart rate was normal. Her temperature was right. She had massive open chest wound, massive, massive. body temperature normalized, heart rate normalized, respiratory rate normalized. And she started asking for food and water.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:47-00:41:48]
Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:48-00:41:49]
She made a full recovery.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:51-00:41:52]
Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:52-00:42:24]
Yeah. And that triggered me to dig into lymphatics at a rate that I had, I had the idea. I had tested it a little bit on my horses and, That outcome, that was it. I started digging into lymphatics like crazy. The practitioner who did this application, it was at the hospital. Everybody saw it. It is now practice. When they have a crashing horse, this is what they do.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:42:25-00:42:28]
So was it helping to like drain fluid?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:31-00:47:36]
Well, you were getting a lot of things happening. First and foremost, the lymphatic system does not have a pump. right? Your circulatory system, your blood has a pump, your heart, right? Every time that boom, boom. So one sucks, one pushes, one sucks, one pushes. Your lymphatic system does not. But the way your body treats everything, toxins and just the fluid that goes into your fascia and that kind of stuff. This is your lymphatic system. It's how you can control different hormones that come through your different nodes and things like that to temperature of your body. So much happens because of your lymph nodes, your lymph basins, right? And think about somebody who gets cancer in their lymphatic system, in their lymph nodes, right? I mean, systemic, their whole body can go down fast. Right. So this is an epicenter of a massive amount of power if you can tap into it. Right. And so. The. The tape itself. Now. Imagine this. So we talked about the epidermis of the skin and how you've got all these receptors that live in the skin. OK, a horse's epidermis is the same thickness as our epidermis. So the idea that horses are thick skin is wrong. Scientifically, do they have thicker skin? They have a thicker dermis, much thicker dermis, but not a thicker epidermis. And they have more sensors in their epidermis and in their hair ruplexes than we have, way more. So they're extremely sensitive skin, which means you can do so much communicating in a horse's skin. Now, one thing that people say to me all the time, I get this all the time, in fact, is, well, aren't you sensory overloading the horse? Like, I know if, as a human... And the humans that I have met that I have asked, like, do you use any kind of human tape? One out of two. So 50 percent of them will tell me that they can't use it because it makes them itch within a couple of hours. They get really irritated quite quickly. They can't leave it on for more than a couple hours at a time. OK, well, first and foremost, because you're stretching your tape way too much, like way back off stretch and be amazed at the difference. It's medical grade adhesive. It's not going to hurt your skin. You would have to be allergic to medical grade adhesive for it to hurt your skin. So why is it itchy and why is it driving nuts and why are you so irritated? It's so much sensory input for your epidermis, for all of those receptors there. It's so much. You're talking about sensors that are designed to understand the difference between pressure, whether something is cold or hot, whether something is sharp or dull. And you're, A, kind of smothering them and, B, activating all of them at the same time. So you have to reduce your stretch so that that doesn't happen. So people say, well, you know, isn't it way worse for a horse? No, because I'm not touching their skin. The tape is designed to go on the hair, so I can communicate directly to the hair root plexus, which communicates directly to the system versus igniting everything on the skin. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, it does. So you would be, if you were covered in hair, kinesiology tape or biomechanics tape or any kind of tape that's designed to utilize the neural structure of your body would be much more effective if you were covered in hair. That's why equine taping is just hands down more effective. So if we're taking... The tape and we understand that we can communicate with the receptors and we understand neurologically what's happening to a horse and we excite the nervous system and the lymphatic system at the same time. Yes. All of a sudden we're dumping fluid because, again, with no pump, the only way to make your lymphatic system work is to move. Now, if I put a stretchy piece of tape that then runs tentacles all the way through the horse's abdominal region and the horse breathes, that tape sends recoil all the way into the lymph basin, which does what? Pumps it. So now every twitch, every breath, every twitch. Calking of a leg from side to side is pumping that lymphatic system over and over and over. Now, all of a sudden, that horse can snap right out of it. Now the lymphatic system and the lymph nodes, not only am I decompressing them from the pain and I'm reducing pain all over the horse's body. So nociception kicks in and now the brain can start to come out of fight or flight and go, the neurologics start to happening about what is the temperature of my body? Oh, I got to increase that temperature. Where is this going? And all the all those things that happen in that heartbeat that we don't think about are happening constantly starts to happen again.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:39-00:47:54]
Yeah, fascinating. Because the fact that there are so many different ways to use it and so many different benefits and things like that of it, are there any ways to use it wrong? And if so, are there common mistakes you see being made?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:57-01:01:30]
This isn't really... This is one of those high debate questions. So love it. I love that you're just like, let's just do all the high debate. Get them. Okay. So you have different schools of thought. Your first school of thought in kinesiology taping, there are three contraindications. Don't use it if you have a systemic infection. Don't use it if you have any kind of infection on your skin, fungal bacteria. Don't use it on open wounds. Those are your contraindications. Okay. Okay. There is not one study, not one in any species since 1970 when kinesiology taping coined by Dr. Kinzo Case came out of using tape spread an infection, made a systemic infection worse, spread a fungal or bacterial infection. Not one, not one report. So let's do the math. 50 plus years of millions of people and animals across the globe using it and not one reported case. No, there are no contraindications. Let's just be real. OK, if you're, you know, can you use it wrong? Biomechanics tape, if you're looking to reduce damage. Movement restrict movement. Yes, you can do that wrong. All right. So if you're not a professional, if you haven't been educated on biomechanics taping, don't restrict the movement of your force. OK, you stay away from that. You're fine. OK, let's say so let's just walk down a path of you go get a roll of two way stretch tape and you want to increase circulation to your horse's hoof because maybe they're struggling with laminitis or white line or navicular or an abscess or anything wrong in the foot. And you like you saw one of my posts. And if you increase circulation to that hoof, it will heal faster. Right. And you think to yourself, well, I mean, that sounds right. Let's do it. OK. And you put the tape on and, you know, I show it circumferentially running around the leg and you're like, I'm just going to do it straight to the hoof. OK. Nothing bad is going to happen. Nothing, nothing bad. Horse is going to get more circulation to the hoof. Good job. Well done. Let's say that you want to do, I'm going to relax my horse's back. It is hypertonic. I can see the spasm. I'm going to do what she says. And instead of taping it insertion to origin, you tape it origin to insertion, which so insertion to origin gets that Golgi tendon organ response, makes the muscle lengthen. Origin to insertion gets the spindle fiber, which makes it flex more, right? So in theory... You'd be totally jacking up your horse, right? Muscles and spasm and now you're making it. Okay. Here's the thing about this application is we've tested and we know that it takes your horse going into oxygen debt before you will have that response. Okay. So if you have a hypertonic muscle or a muscle in full spasm, are you going to go work your horse out for 30 minutes to get him into oxygen debt? Probably not. You know what I'm saying? Like, okay, so what's happening is then you're just going to get... You know, a little bit of sensory response going and you're going to get some decompression of the tissue, a little micro space underneath of the interstitial fluid that's just going to cause a little bit of increased circulation into the area. And so your horse stands there for three days with just a little bit of increased circulation to a spasming muscle. What's going to happen to that spasming muscle? It's going to feel better. Plus, you've got nociception happening over it. So there's reduction in pain. And now your horse gets a parasympathetic response going and they're licking and chewing and closing their eyes and they take a nice little nap. And what does that do? That relaxes the body. So you're not going to hurt your horse there. Every one of these applications, if you're using two-way stretch tape, um or four-way stretch tape and you are not trying to limit about the mobility of the horse right actually putting let's say a leg into flexion and taping it into flexion because we don't want it to go into full extension if you're not doing that then no you're not going to hurt your horse will you get the outcome you're looking for probably not so this is why you get a lot of people go i tried to tape it didn't work right yeah okay you taped it wrong that's okay But if you tape it right, what you get out of it is astronomical. Then you get diehard fans that are like, I will always have tape with me. I will take every horse I ever meet my entire life because it saved my horse's life or it changed my horse's life. Or I had a horse with chronic lymphedema that actually went back to work and is off drugs and off everything because I taped them. And I, you know, you hear those responses. How do those people get that response? They just follow directions. Yeah. Like, y'all, I make my education super simple. Put it here. Run it this way. Don't stretch it more than this much. But you got it. It'll reproduce the same way every time. Right. So super simple. Another huge misconception, y'all. Equine tape is so different from human tape. It just is. Right. There are only a few companies in the world that actually produce a true equine tape. And I have issues with all of them in how they build their tape, all of them, which is why I build my own. OK, but at least they're better than human tape. And why do I say better? There's nothing wrong with human tape. If you are a human, use human tape. It is designed for you. It is not designed for a horse that is covered in a hair is 10 times your size and has a completely different sensory system going on. Right. So if you're putting rock tape on your horse and expecting the outcome that I get, you're not going to get it. It cannot deliver the same. We build it differently, very, very differently. So that's one misconception. No, human tape, hands down, will not produce the same way, cannot, will not do it. If you tape a horse with rock tape, the same application, and you use my functional tape, and you stand them side by side and do the exact same thing, you will see the functional tape responds so much different, and that horse responds so much different. Why? The material is different. The amount of stretch is different. The adhesive I use is different. Does it really make that big of a difference? It does. On an animal, 10 times the size. My horse is probably 12 times my size. Let's be honest. She's like 16.1. She roughly comes in at like She's a beefcake. She's like 1,500 pounds tall. People think she's a stud. They're like, oh, you have the best behaved stud. And I was like, no, mare. But beefcake. Okay, so she's more than 10 times my size, right? So... That's why. So huge misconception there. Definitely, definitely, definitely. If you're going to put tape on a horse, make sure it's at least a tape that is, you know, an equine tape. And I know Rock Tape in the UK has equine line. It's the same human tape. I promise it is. I promise. I promise. I promise. I worked with Rock Tape for years. you know, it needs a lot more stretch. It needs a lot more breathability, holes in it, things like that. Okay, so another huge misconception is you can only tape a horse for five days and you have to pull the tape off. That's not true. If you're using an equine tape and an equine two-way stretch tape, you can leave that tape on for months and not have a problem. It won't be working, but it won't hurt your horse, okay? Once the tape stops recoiling, And you'll see when it's not recoiling that it's not working. Take it off. But let's say that you totally forgot about it. You left it on your horse for a month. There's not going to be bacteria or fungus or anything underneath because it's designed to breathe. It's designed to go on hair that then attaches to skin. And that space is full of a lot of humidity. So it's designed to let all that go so that your horse can get wet and do all the stuff and things. Right. So that's a misconception. Um, Four-way stretch tape, absolutely. Five days, take it off, make sure the skin and everything is clean underneath before you put a new application on. Why? Completely different modality. Not modality, structure of the tape. The material itself, a fully synthetic material, just cannot breathe the way a cotton can breathe, right? So that's one of those. And the stretch. So huge misconception. Stop stretching the tape so much. If your application doesn't stick and you're using an equine tape, when I say doesn't stick, it only lasted for an hour. It's because you overstretched the tape so much that it popped off. Every person I have met from the beginning of me teaching courses until I put it digital to today, Today, if I go teach a brand new person how to tape, they will overstretch the tape, hands down. I have seen practitioners who have been working for 10 years. I watch them do an application. They overstretch the tape. However much stretch you think 10% is, just do half of that. Just do half. It stretches really easy. You don't feel the stretch in it because it's built for a horse. It's built to stretch 200%. to allow for your horse's full range of motion, right? So let's say your horse is standing and they're in a neutral position, just kind of flat and level with the ground. Head and neck is flat and level with the ground, neutral position. If you tape the back in that position, it is mostly those big back muscles, the longissimus dorsi, is mostly flexed. It's in a quite short position. If that horse puts his head on the ground, you've increased the length of the muscle 60-70%. Just by putting his head on the ground to eat something. Now if he were to try and reach around and itch his hawk or itch his flank or bite out a fly, you've now increased the length of that muscle from that neutral position over 100%. It gets really long to be able to do something like that. And you're going to pop your tape off, right? So if I put stretch on the tape, let's say 20% in that horse's position, and then he goes through full range of motion, there is no amount of adhesive in the world that is going to allow that to happen without causing your horse pain, which would then stop your horse from moving. So truly equine tape is designed, developed to let go of the horse when you overstretch it. So when people get upset and they call us and they're like, the application will last two hours. And I'm like, you are welcome. You're welcome. Why? Because your horse isn't hurt and they're not limiting their range of motion because it's uncomfortable for them to move. Now, if you use human tape or you use a tape, there is one equine brand that they use a massive amount of adhesive on it. You will find that horses move less and less and less throughout the day. If you see that happening, that's because your horse is uncomfortable. Take the tape off. it doesn't stretch enough to allow that big old body to do what it's going to do. So there's, yeah, there's quite a few misconceptions. And definitely that's why I would say like, if this is something you're interested in, pick up the book, like come, come check us out because if there's no science behind it, I'm going to tell you why it's wrong. And at least, you know, for me, you're going to get a very transparent print. Like, yeah, that's, that don't do that. Like a basket weave. I tell everybody, stop basket weaving. Stop anchoring applications. If you guys are out there and you people are taping already and you're anchoring a circulation application, you are locking the inflammation and the fluid into that area of the body. Stop doing it. There's plenty of research now to prove it, right? Just no anchors. If you need an anchor to keep your tape on, you are overstretching the tape. Number one. Number two, you're not getting where you want to go anyways. Right. So just do it again and stop basket weaving. So, yeah, quite a few. And, you know, I think the greatest thing is that, you know, companies that really believe in the science. they are starting to pick up this research and changing things. The problem is, is that we kind of had to break the mold. So much of the modality had to change that it just needed to be a new modality is all really what it was.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:32-01:01:40]
You mentioned your book with that. I'd love to discuss that a little bit. Like what inspired you to write your book, Stick with Success? Let's start there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:44-01:05:06]
It's something I worked on for years. and it was always kind of on the back burner and shout out to EOS. It's called a, The Entrepreneurial Organizational System, EOS, our super cool company, helps business owners and, like, brains and stuff, like, organize your company and all this stuff, right? And one of the things that you do at these quarterly meetings, and anybody in your company in leadership, they come together and they all get to throw out different things that they feel like the company should be doing, right? We call it our opportunities. Instead of issues, they're opportunities, right? And then we get to discuss them. We get to solve them. We get to fix them. And then we get these great questions. foundationally solid companies that kind of weather anything. And so it's a quarterly meeting. It's something I had been working on for years. And one of my leadership team throws on the IDS board, my book, man, once it goes up there, you have to fix it. Right. That's our rule is if it's on the board, it gets dealt with. And so, you know, it kind of kept moving up the priority list until finally it was like, All right, I should just do it. And this was right about the time that I was solidifying all of this research that I had done. And I had realized, like, I can't keep teaching kinesiology taping. I just can't. It was a it was like. kinesiology taping was the infant and now it's grown into maturity and so much of it doesn't work. Right. And so I'm like, well, what better way to not only this big change that will have to happen in the company and all of this research that I had to compile and put together and all these courses I had to rebuild with all of the data that I had and what better way to launch than to launch all these things simultaneously, but also release a book about it. A lot of people like to pick up a book, read a book, whatever. And so that's kind of how it happened. You know, my team wanted it and they pushed me to finish it. And then. Then it was like, oh, my gosh, what a process. You just have to, like, lay your heart bare to it. And I'm super sarcastic and I love cracking jokes all the time. Like, I make fun of myself more than, you know, anyone else, because I figure if you can't laugh at yourself, then you're way too uptight. Like, you know. And so I make a lot of jokes in it, but there is, you know, some really heartfelt sections of the book where I'm like, don't worry. I was ugly crying while writing this. So if you need a tissue, go grab one. And that's the reality of it. Like, it's funny. It's an, you know, it. You're not going to read it like you're reading a science book. Right. It's very fluid and wonderful success stories and motivational. And it's going to warm your heart, make you cry and laugh all at the same time. So, yeah, it's just finally inspired to do it. I love to write. I'm not. as good as I want to be, but I'm way better than I used to be.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:05:07-01:05:20]
Yeah. Yeah. What can, what can our listeners expect from the books? You mentioned like case studies. There's, I think you said like maybe some do's or don'ts, correct me if I'm wrong. Like what, what can they expect from the book?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:05:22-01:11:48]
Well, first you're going to get a really good history on the whole process of History is important, like without history, then we make the same mistakes over and over. So that's super important. You really will get to know me and my story and the person behind all of this, which I think is just as important. it's important for me when I work with people, right. To kind of know their background and where they came from and what drives them and what motivates them. The last thing you want to do is work with somebody who's just motivated by money or pride. You know, I had a, my company was solid and we were strong and we were really all working together. And then I brought on someone to do social media for us. And yeah, Great interview, great personality, great all this, great, great, great. But behind the scene, she's a bit narcissistic and really wanted the spotlight. And that person created so much drama in my company. And by the time I realized what had happened... And let the person go. The wounds of the people in my company were deep. And so I'm very specific about the people I work with and the people that I will recommend on my website and supplement companies and things. I have to meet the owners and I have to talk with them and I have to know what's your reason for being here. You know, my company, we have some important things. You can't work with the company unless you have a servant's heart. Why are these things important? Because when we fight a fight together and we stand next to each other side by side, if I'm here for the horse and you're here to see your name in print, that's not a good ally to stand next to you. Because when it gets hard and the hits start coming, they're going to duck and run. Right. And so I wanted people to really get to know me. And to know why I'm so passionate about it and what gets me out of bed and that kind of stuff. So that when I teach them, that they can already trust me. They can know that I'm here for the right reasons. I'm not teaching you to do this because I want you to buy a roll of tape and spend, you know, a hundred bucks on a course so that I can line my pockets. Like, that's not what I'm doing at all. And you don't want to see my tax returns. I make negative every year. Like, This ain't getting me rich. I do it because I believe every horse deserves the absolute best care that we can give them. And I believe that this modality can do so many amazing things and save you thousands and thousands of dollars. That is the most common testimonial I get. This saved me thousands. Or I wish I knew about this before it would have saved me thousands. Or I wish I would have known about this before it would have saved my horse's life. Right. And so I believe in it. I believe in it so deeply. My soul, all of me is so fiercely strong about this point that God put me here to help these horses. I don't know why. Maybe helping the horse helps the human behind them. I've seen that happen a lot. I've seen a lot of horses heal a human. Not knowing the human was broke, they come to me, their horse is broke, I help them heal their horse, they get healed, and then I get these beautiful cards and emails. And, I mean, literally people will send me cards, handwritten cards, that I didn't just save their horse's life, I saved their life. So maybe that's why. So you're going to get that. You're going to get kind of some... You will get so much information about your horse that you did not know. You will understand the simple, most slight communication they give you when they don't feel good, when they're in pain that you've never thought of. You've never looked at and go, oh, that means my horse is in pain. I'm going to give you information about why it's so important to feed your horse certain things and why it's so important not to feed your horse certain things. I'm going to break it down into layman terms that you don't have to be a a DVM or an MD to understand it. The everyday person can understand why are you feeding your horse this way? We're going to talk about psychology of the horse. We're going to talk about how devastating it is to take them away from their herd and to lock them up. And we're going to talk about the science too. We're going to explore all of this because it all comes together, right? I can help you fix your horse's torn suspensory. Or I can help you fix your whole horse, and I'd rather do that. So the book touches on all of these things. And at the end of it, you are going to die. think to yourself, first and foremost, I enjoyed reading that. But one of the testimonials I got from the book is I really thought this was going to be a science book. I was super shocked that I couldn't put it down. It was a page turner. I loved it. And I walked away with so much information. You are going to know so much more about your horse. You're going to be able to walk out and communicate with your horse in a very different way, which will create a stronger bond between you and your horse. And who doesn't love that? You know, when I walk out to my herd in the pasture and, All I have to do is have my presence there and they run to me just to be next to me. That's it. I've got no cookies in my pocket, no candies because I don't feed them sugars. You know, they just want to be next to me. Why? Because I've worked hard to build that bond because I can listen to them. I understand their language. I can communicate with them. I know when something hurts and I fix it. And you fix something that hurts on your horse and they will bond to you and you will become a part of their herd. And so that's what the book gives. It's, it's, uh, it's going to really, we're going to go from head to tail and wither to hoof.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:11:49-01:12:05]
Oh, I love it. Rebecca, I've been asking a lot of our podcast guests this question for the past couple of years. Um, because as we all know, the industry is going through a lot of shifts, some good, some bad. And so what is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry? Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:12:08-01:17:17]
Oh, man. It's like, you know, I heard a... I'm just going to say this and hopefully nobody takes it the wrong way. You know, with cancel culture going on, I hope y'all don't cancel me. So many things need to change. holy moly stramboli like uh let's let's have some personal responsibility back in the equine world yeah like and that's your horse feed it take care of it do it right get his feet trimmed come on get his teeth done what are we talking about come on basic simple uh training astronomically training aids uh oh man You know, F.E.I., are you serious? Like, let the horse compete without a bridle. What? Come on! Blows my mind. An ethical treatment of these animals and us shoving all this crap down their throats and injecting their joints with all of this stuff. Come on. I think that I talk about this in my book, too. I have a beef with pharmaceuticals. I have a beef with Western medicine. Because we want to go curative so fast. We don't care about the whole horse. We don't care that half of the reason that their back is in the position it's in is because the feeder, the raised feeder company that spends millions of dollars to show you all the reasons why you should have a raised feeder in your barn so you don't have to worry about dirt and sand and sand colic and all this stuff. Spends millions of dollars for you to give something to your horse that structurally, biomechanically hurts them. Right? Like that kind of stuff. Yeah. We have a lot to fix. We have a lot to fix. And the case in point, I was working on a horse, an Olympic horse. We're not talking. You want to talk about the horse flesh in this barn? Come on. I walk in the barn. All you smell is ammonia. Not a single run on a single stall. There was a two-year-old with a bit in his mouth in the stall. There's a trainer riding a horse in the arena. And then there's this Olympic horse that had just come back from Sweden, and they wanted me to work on the horse. He was sore. And I'm walking through, and I'm like, there's a lot of acreage, okay? There's a lot of acreage. There was not a single horse outside. Okay. So I'm like, what is going on here? Like, what is going on here? And I see this two-year-old, and I'm like, why is there a bit in that two-year-old's mouth in there? And he's like, well, because she doesn't want to be soft in the face, so that'll make her soft in the face. How long has that horse had that bit in her mouth? About 24 hours now. Oh, gosh, yeah. The trainer in the arena is spurring this horse so hard that when he came out of the arena, there was blood on his flanks. And they wanted me to work on this horse. It was like, I just started taking pictures. I sent it all to the association that they're a part of. And I was like, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And this is common practice, y'all. This is common practice. So I would say transparency. I would say that if you're, you know, our associations, reigning, cutting, working horrors, rodeos, FEI, I'm talking all of them need to just pure ethical period. If it's not ethical, you cannot compete and just get these, these punks out of there i think as a horse owner um y'all learn learn learn learn right start with my book i'm gonna give you a ton of information not just about taping oars ton of information learn don't give your horse sugars um at all ever like ever there's really no reason um We can do so much better as humans, especially the more enlightened we become. Every generation you would think is supposed to become more enlightened. We should be doing better. And we have ourselves to blame. You can't regulate it in. You just can't. There's no way around it. You can try and put up as many walls as you want to. But, you know, history has shown us you just can't do that. So. I think that, you know, leaders in each industry need to start standing up and just saying they get enough is enough is enough is enough. I'd love to see all fraternities stopped. I think that a horse should not be able to compete until every growth plate has finished growing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:17:17-01:17:17]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:17:18-01:17:50]
Right. So fraternity for a quarter horse couldn't be any earlier than six. And your thoroughbreds shouldn't be competing until they're seven to eight. Right. Like if if they're growing and I get it, like we compete as high school athletes, we compete as college athletes. But we're not competing. I mean, think about it. A horse that's three or four that's going into a futurity is roughly the same age as your 10 year old. Send your 10 year old to the Olympics.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:17:50-01:17:51]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:17:52-01:18:22]
I'm just saying so yeah I mean just a few things just a couple I appreciate hearing them all it's one of those things where I feel like these types of conversations are what need to be had it's like a first place the first place to start is to have these conversations to be like this this is the way that so many of us in the industry are feeling so like it's It's not just me, for example.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:18:22-01:18:45]
I'm not the one just here sitting in my house having these feelings and then thinking, oh, well, I can't make a change because I'm the only one that feels this way. The more that we have this conversation that makes it an us rather than a me or a you, it's where it's like, okay, if we all start to make these changes, we're greater as a whole. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:18:45-01:19:10]
Anything to... Every person has a voice. Stop believing the lie that your voice doesn't matter. Your voice matters more than you will ever know. So use it. If you see somebody doing this, tell them. You should be ashamed of yourself, human being. Get your act right on. You know, don't make me move my neck. You know.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:19:12-01:19:13]
I love that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:19:13-01:20:05]
You should have heard what I said to those trainers. I was like, why don't you pick on somebody your own size? Let's see. Let's see. No, not that I would say like violence is bad, but like, I mean, I'll put a bit in your mouth and see how you feel in 24 hours. Let's have a conversation then, buddy. Anyways, you know, I think saying something is important. I think people putting people on blast when it happens, not supporting it. Stop going to the races, right? If you're a company and you are endorsing a faturity, you are paying advertising money to put your name at that faturity, you're just as much to blame. Sorry, cancel me. Go ahead. But if they didn't get money to do it, they wouldn't do it anymore.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:20:05-01:20:06]
Yeah, yeah, you're right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:20:06-01:20:55]
So as companies, stop advertising there. Don't tell me that you're an ethical feed company who does everything holistic and natural. And then you're the biggest advertiser at the reigning horse maturity. Yeah, but they need that market. They need that market to buy their feed. I don't know. Right. So it's personal responsibility. It's personal ethics. Like it's got to start from the top down. Well, it doesn't. It can go from bottom up. It can go from middle out, can go top down. And the more we get in each area, the faster it goes. So, you know, if you see a company that advertises on things that you think is ethically wrong, stop buying their stuff. Find somebody else. All right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:20:57-01:20:58]
Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:20:58-01:21:12]
You as a consumer have more power than you will ever know. If you don't believe in that company, you don't believe in what they're doing, then support a company you do believe in. Support a group you do believe in. Right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:21:14-01:21:25]
Love it. We have four rapid fire questions we ask every podcast guest. It's just like the first thing that pops into your mind. The first one is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:21:27-01:21:30]
If you're getting shot at, you're over the target. You're in the right place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:21:30-01:21:36]
That's a good one. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:21:37-01:21:42]
Sherry LaPerry. She introduced me to horses. Phenomenal woman. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:21:43-01:21:44]
Great name, too.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:21:45-01:21:45]
I know.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:21:46-01:21:50]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:21:50-01:22:02]
Oh, gosh. Jeez, that's the harder one.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:22:02-01:22:13]
Just one? I remember there was a podcast I heard and it was like, if you could have a billboard, what would your billboard say? I don't know if that makes it any easier.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:22:13-01:22:25]
Yeah. Okay. You can't love anyone or anything if you don't love yourself.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:22:27-01:22:34]
Love it. That's a good one. And the last one, please complete the sentence. For me, horses are?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:22:35-01:22:39]
Life. Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:22:40-01:22:47]
Rebecca, where can our audience find you, get your book, connect with you, all the things? We're going to put links in the show notes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:22:48-01:24:04]
Cool. Equitex.com, that's E-Q-U-I-T-E-C-S for Equine Technologies Institute. You can follow us. Everything we do there is scientific based. Every supplement company I tell you I believe in, they have good ethics. You can trust them. You can trust the ingredients. That's a huge thing to me. So, yeah. Get us there. Books should be everywhere soon. Every place that you can get it, you should be able to get it. Definitely get it. Support us. It's a huge, huge deal. We're always here for our community, for our customers. Never be afraid to reach out to us. We will never get too big to answer. And we love helping people help horses. So, yeah. Send us your crazy questions. My horse had a check ligament injury seven years ago. Can they still be helped? Yes, they can. We can show you how. Facebook, social media, Equitex, same thing, Instagram, Facebook. We have tons of followers and a phenomenal community. Remember, as equestrians, we're not just a community. We're an extended family. So treat each other well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:24:05-01:24:07]
I love that. Thank you for adding that at the end.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:24:08-01:24:09]
You're welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:24:09-01:24:20]
Thank you so much for being here and for sharing all of this with us. I know I learned so much from this from this episode, and I'm sure that our listeners did, too. So thank you, Rebecca.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:24:20-01:24:22]
You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:24:24-01:24:58]
Thank you. Thank you. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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