#87 Fascia, Ribcage Restrictions, and more with Sara Aventino

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:02-00:00:12]
On this episode, we're talking with Sara Aventino, an equine myominipulative functional therapist, neurofascial conditioning, and rib entrapment syndrome therapist.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:14-00:00:39]
It's important to remember that horses are prey animals and their nervous system is wired to flight. So when they encounter restrictions like tight fascia, stuck ribs or muscle tensions, their movement is limited. So the nervous system stays in this high alert state because they don't have the freedom of movement they should have to be able to function properly.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:40-00:01:40]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Sara is a certified professional in equine myo-manipulative functional therapy and the only person in Italy certified in level one neurofascial conditioning and rib entrapment syndrome therapy. She is also certified as an EQ practitioner in emotional intelligence and self-awareness and is studying to become an NLP practitioner. Sara's desire to combine self-awareness techniques with working with horses stems from the desire to seek clear and profound communication with the animal and find balance. We'll be chatting today about EMFT, neurofascial conditioning, rib entrapment, how the bridle can affect the horse's fascial nerves and skull, and more. Let's get started. Sara, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm super excited to chat with you because obviously we know each other from previous and I'm just I'm really excited to welcome to the podcast. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:42-00:01:44]
Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

[SPEAKER 2]
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So I'd love to go back to the very beginning. It's where I normally start with all of our guests. What inspired you to get into equine bodywork in the first place?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, so you actually know this one. I got into equine body work and rehabilitation when my young elder, he was three at the time, according to my vet and my trainer, was ready to start his riding career. And I vividly remember the feeling of just not knowing what to do and not You know, I was completely broken every time he would be just unsound for no obvious reason. And I remember getting off my horse crying the majority of the time. And, you know, just nothing seemed to work. And... I wish I could have done more to help my own horse. And I felt just devastated. And, you know, everyone around me was just telling me to, you know, just get over it. He's faking it. You just have to ride him more. And he's not lame. He's just the way he is. And, yeah. So after we got an appointment with an equine osteopath, he was a little bit better, but he was still not sound. So that's when I started doing my own research and getting into equine body work. And so, yeah, I started studying again and now I'm an equine body worker. I promised myself to just help as many courses as as possible.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:03:19-00:03:51]
I love it. And you do really specific and interesting things, which is what we're going to be discussing here today. So I'd love if we could kind of go through one at a time, like each one, so our listeners can find out more about what it is and what exactly you offer and how it could help their horses. So let's first start with the Equine Myo Manipulative Functional Therapy. What is that and what inspires you to specialize in that modality in particular?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, so this is a specialized body work modality that focuses on identifying and correcting movement dysfunction to optimize the horse's performance and obviously well-being. So using primarily myofascial release, it takes a comprehensive whole body hands-on approach to relieve muscular tension, restore balance and support proper function. And before specializing in this modality, I spent a lot of time researching and following other body workers on social media. And where I'm from, I'm from Italy, I couldn't quite find the type of education that I was looking for, especially regarding fascia and its role in movement. So that's when I discovered this course and it just immediately clicked with me. And yeah, of course, it took a lot of study and practice to get to where I am today. And I truly believe that continuing education is every body worker's best friend. But yeah, this is how I started. And yeah, this is my origin story as a body worker.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:05:10-00:05:35]
I love it. It's so interesting because it is so different from the majority of the modalities that we hear about. And then the next one, again, very specific and very important is the neurofascial conditioning. What is that and how is it different from what we know of the traditional myofascial work or other body work modalities?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:05:36-00:07:46]
Yes, so the neurofascial conditioning is a soft tissue fascial-based technique that uses myofascial release, obviously, and muscle stimulation and instrument-assisted soft tissue mobilization tools to stimulate some specific sensory nerve fibers in the fascia and the associated soft tissue. and this method was created by Chrissy DeCola, and it was such an incredible experience being able to learn from her. So I'm only certified level one for now, so there's still so much I have to learn about this. But basically the intent is to communicate with the nervous system so the nervous system and the fascial system communicate more effectively with each other. So it works by conditioning the neurosensory network and fascial lines to improve proprioception, interoception, and overall functional movement. And this method has completely changed how I approach bodywork. I had never used a fascial tool before, and it was so interesting to learn how to use one. And it has really given me the tools to spot imbalances in the body in a way that I was not able to do before and really release tension with intention. And it's different because we don't manipulate the tissue with this method. We kind of retrain the nervous system's relationship with the fascial system. So instead of forcing, so to speak, it's not the right term because you should never force the body. But what I mean is, yeah, we don't manipulate the fascia to release. It relies on the horse's own nervous system to let go and create lasting changes, asking the body to kind of self-correct instead of being manipulated into some sort of correction or, yeah, release, so to speak.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:47-00:08:22]
Yeah. So interesting. And I had had a conversation with an osteopath quite a few months ago, and she was saying about how fascia, it affects the entire body. It is the entire body, essentially. But it even can affect hoof growth and hoof balance and all of those different things. So can you speak a little bit about how the fascial systems interact in the horse and And how the interaction is crucial for like not only their performance, but also just their overall comfort and their overall health.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:23-00:11:06]
Yeah, so this is a very interesting question, and I literally could go on for hours. So basically, the spatial system is a continuous 3D web of connective tissue surrounding, yeah, as you said, everything in the body, muscles, bones, nerves, organs, everything. And the neuromuscular system is basically nerves and muscles working together. So fascia is very rich in sensory receptors, so it facilitates communication and force transmission throughout the body. and the nerves embedded in the fascia provide all the sensory information to the brain about posture and movement, while the muscles create force and the fascia helps conduct to create a coordinated action. So this interaction is essential because when muscles can contract and lengthen and relax fully, force is transmitted smoothly throughout the body and movement is coordinated. But when you have some restrictions, it can lead even to hoof problems, as you mentioned. This is a very interesting topic. And also, it can lead to chronic bracing, uneven loading of joints, and even overused injuries. Yeah. You know, a healthy interaction helps prevent even long-term problems. And when we think about all the different areas in the body, like the neck and the pole, these are highly sensitive areas of proprioception. And yeah, there are fascial areas. Chains that, you know, extend into the back, meaning that the tension at the pole can ripple down through the entire top line, just as back or rib restrictions can create bracing in the neck. And this is a bidirectional movement. influence and that explains why for example pole freedom is essential not only for suppleness but also for balance and coordination and as i said it's just an example because um we could go on and on and i'm trying to keep this as simple as possible but um yeah the body is so interconnected and when restrictions occur whether in the ribs back or the neck pull the shoulders the interaction between the fascia and the neuromuscular control is disrupted. So yeah, a small restriction anywhere in the fascia or neuromuscular system can ripple through the entire body.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:07-00:11:37]
It's so wild. You mentioned rib restriction in there as well. And so do That's another one of the services that you offer is rib entrapment syndrome therapy. Can we discuss a little bit like what exactly is rib entrapment in horses or rib restriction like you mentioned? How does it manifest in the body? Like what causes it? And why is it important to be aware and also like helping to relieve it?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:11:39-00:13:20]
Yeah, so rib entrapment syndrome therapy builds actually upon the neurofascial conditioning method by using it in combination with mobilization techniques to restore balance to the rib cage. And so, yeah, rib restrictions and... Rib entrapment syndrome really in horses refers to, you know, a state where a horse's rib cage becomes restricted. So the muscular and facial attachments around the ribs are chronically contracted. And so this reduces rib mobility, causing asthmatic body rotation because As we were just talking about, the body is so deeply interconnected. So when the rib cage or sternum becomes rotated or imbalanced, the impact is not limited to the ribs. It can influence the entire myofascial and skeletal system, affecting the spine, the pelvis, the shoulder, and also causing even some cases of high-low syndrome, are actually because of this asymmetry, sometimes caused by irritation of the ribs or the sternum. And so, yeah, it also obviously affects overall movement because, you know, ribs literally lock horses into this asthmatic posture. And it's really interesting because when we look at horses from above and we do take a lot of pictures from there to just really see this rotation, even in case studies and stuff. And it's incredible to see the changes in just one session, you know, before you see like this slowness.

[SPEAKER 2]
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spine that is completely twisted and it's obviously because of you know all these fascial restrictions that are there are literally pulling the bones in different positions and you know i've seen it with my own horse it's it's a game changer on so many levels and then you see this this horse that becomes straight and it did look straight before and but then you see you know the before and after and it's just a completely different different body yeah i just find it fascinating because i i have found at least that the majority of the conversations around equine body work have to do with like the back um and then the things that we generally look at is it's like oh okay are they sore in their back are they um like a line through their pelvis? How's their, like they, a lot of times people are looking at their legs and their, you know, their steps and, you know, and those sorts of things. And it's like the rib on a, especially a horse being a four-legged animal is so important. And I just find it to me personally through the discussions that I've had is it's a, it's an often overlooked or under-discussed Part of the body. And it's like you had said, it's so important with, you know, the movement limitations, the straightness, the compensation patterns that horses can have, the posture, you know, all of those different things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:14:53-00:16:05]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I used to work a lot on, yeah, as you said, on the back and, you know, the hindquarters. And those are obviously places where we need to work. We need to look after, you know, we need to keep the whole body healthy. But yeah, the ribs and especially like this, this specific modality that restores balance is, was something that was really missing from my practice. And I think that, yeah, as I was, you know, when I was studying my first bodywork certification, I just, I remember thinking, yeah, but what about the middle of the horse? You know, you just, you never spend time on the middle. And a very interesting thing that I've noticed is that, yeah, Rib pain can actually show up as back pain, which is in many horses. You know, owners come and say, yeah, I think my horse has back pain. And then you look at the back and it's like, yeah, it's restricted. But actually, you know, the issue lies somewhere else. And the majority of the time I found to be the ribs, actually.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:05-00:16:21]
Yeah. Keeping along the topic of the ribs, or just fashion in general, are there any, like, common signs, whether it's behavioral, physical, performance-related, that owners or riders should watch for?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:21-00:21:25]
Yeah, so... Well, it's interesting because we usually think about horses moving stiffly with a short stride or swing unevenly. But I think that because you mentioned possible behavioral signs, and this is true for every kind of restriction anywhere in the body, It's important to remember that horses are prey animals and their nervous system is wired to flight. So when they encounter restrictions like, yeah, tight fascia, stuck ribs or muscle tensions, their movement is limited. So the nervous system stays in this high alert state because they don't have the freedom of movement they should have to be able to function properly. And so, um, I think that the first thing we should really look at is really the horse's expression. Which is probably a weird answer, but it's true because, you know, it's not the first sign of restriction is not in the movement at all. You know, all those subtle changes in the eyes, tension around the nostrils, like what we usually call the pain phase. It's the first sign, you know, horses are made to compensate, to try to, you know, avoid showing where they are. hurt where they have this discomfort they're wired like that and so but actually they do communicate this discomfort incredibly early but these expressions are often dismissed or people just don't see them at all you know and so when we see that pain phase it's often the body's way of saying something doesn't feel right long before lameness or obvious stiffness appears, actually. So if nothing changes from there, if this communication is not, you know, people just don't get this kind of communication from the horse, then, yeah, we start to see all those shortened strides, reluctance to bend, behavioral resistance under saddles, such as, you know, throwing, like... the head in the air, head shaking, you know, just all this big signs that is actually the horse shouting like, no, I'm in pain. And so when owners and trainers often notice changes in performance or attitude, but they just don't always connect them back to fascial or nerve restriction or rib restriction and, you know, any kind of restriction in the body. And they try to work through them, adding even more tension. And so, as we said, these restrictions affect whole chains. So you might see a rib pain and tightness show up as back pain. Or pole tension show up as reluctance to canter, even if those two things for some people are not connected, but they are. And so, yeah, some of the most common signs would, I think, include like subtle posture shifts. such as standing camped under, camped out, or even always resting on the same hind leg. And then, yeah, we have all those movement patterns that are not correct and are not biomechanically functional for the horse. such as yeah, short and stride, or we have this loss of swing through the back. And this is something that I see a lot, like a lot of horses just don't have that swing through the back. And it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. And yeah, even just, you know, reluctance to even pick up their feet and struggling while trying to stand on the other three legs and horses holding their breath or fatigue quicker than expected even sensitivity just to grooming or touch a lot of horses are very guarded in certain areas just don't want you to touch them or they let you touch them but if you really look at the horse, it's actually tensing up, like it doesn't want you to go near a certain area. Right. And also another big thing is, well, obviously, asymmetry and muscle development. So yeah, I think that it's so hard for people to notice the signs. And I think that also, once you get educated enough, it's just so obvious if you think about it. But I think that it's because we are so used to seeing horses in a constant state of tension and discomfort that is just so normalized. So, yeah, when owners notice even the smallest change, even if it's just a feeling, it's usually the horse's body asking for help.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:26-00:21:42]
Now, are there any, like, movement exercises or, like, homework that you'll give to the owners to do with their horses after you leave or like to support the work that you do with the horses?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:44-00:23:19]
Yeah. So sometimes we actually go through these exercises together first because I, you know, I can't release restriction, obviously, but the body needs regular reinforcement to maintain and integrate these changes. But I also don't like giving just a bunch of exercises. I think that the classic rehab exercises are great tools to have. But the majority of the time, they're not executed correctly. Because when we rush or push horses through sound or rehab movements, even just walking over poles, if it's not done correctly, it can actually do more harm than good. Because, you know, we often miss what's really happening, the way the nervous system responds and, you know, how the horse is actually feeling and whether muscles are truly engaging correctly. If the horse is maybe compensating or, you know, all those things. small and little things and I really want to engage the coercive movements that promote relaxation and awareness and just keeping things slow and controlled but also without micromanaging the force at the same time yeah um So, yeah, by moving slowly and with intention so the horse has a chance to stay relaxed and connect with its body and, you know, change all these movement patterns, like reset the nervous system. Because it all starts with the nervous system. And so, yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:20-00:23:36]
I was just going to ask, like, how do you get the horses into a state of relaxation or like a more of like a regulated nervous system response where your manual therapy can then help them actually release? And is it that you just go really slow? Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:23:39-00:25:60]
yeah so um yeah i do go very slow actually um but so yeah um as we said uh if a horse stands stressed or in a state of alert muscles are braced fascist side and the nervous system is essentially saying i'm not ready to let go and as a protectioner i have to respect that always because you know the horse needs to feel safe before any real change can happen and you know I tried to create a safe relaxed space for the horse by focusing first on the nervous system and especially my own nervous system. And this can involve grounding techniques where I focus on my own relaxation, my own breathing. I try to do sometimes a body scan and consciously release tension in my own body before approaching the horse. Even during body work, sometimes I just take a step back if the horse needs me to take a step back. So, yeah, slow, gentle touch and assessment to help the horse notice its body and feel what is happening. And that can sometimes create even more stress because most horses and most people actually don't feel safe in their own bodies. So it's very important to help the horse stay under the threshold, but also help the horse notice where the tension is. So it's, yeah, it's a very delicate balance. But yeah, once the horse is relaxed and aware and that sometimes that doesn't happen. I mean, there are some horses that are so guarded and so, you know, so chronically stressed that that is not always possible. So that is where you keep sessions, you know, short and sweet. But yeah, once you get into that state, the muscles and the fascia can soften and release naturally. So it's all about giving the nervous system permission to just let go rather than trying to force a physical outcome. So yeah, I always step back if the horse needs to process, if it needs time. And yeah, I even end some sessions early when it's too much to handle for the horse. And this entirely changed my practice. Just, you know, paying a lot of attention to every sign of the horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:02-00:26:36]
I love it. I want to talk about a little bit like of the environmental factors that could come into play, you know, with things like rib entrapment or like the fascial or the nerve dysfunction. So things like tack. So whether it's like bridled or saddle, et cetera, training methods, the rider's balance, Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What role do some of those things play in things like the rib entrapment and then the fascial system?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:37-00:30:29]
Yeah. So the thing is, we try to do so much with our horses' bodies and we manipulate them every single day. We add all different kinds of tag and sometimes without even knowing what a certain piece of equipment actually does. And sometimes we are so focused on having a riding partner rather than, you know, remembering that we are working and interacting with an animal with the nervous system and a body that has to compensate for all the things we ask of it so i'm just gonna say it i think that the majority of training methods do not respect the horse's body and i think that most trainers are not educated enough on anatomy and biomechanics and that is a big problem I know that things are changing and I see lots of great trainers. But at the same time, we also see a lot of horses that are asked to work in tension with forced frames or repetition without relaxation. Instead of supple movement, we get bracing and protective patterns. And this is how... fascia gets tight you know the nervous system goes into this kind of protective mode because we don't consider the way our horses feel about that certain things that we ask of them and so it's our job to help our horses navigate through what we ask of them in the healthy way And, you know, tech fit is definitely another big topic. And unfortunately, we see it all the time. A poorly fitted saddle or bridle creates constant points of pressure. You know, it's on a horse's body and the pressure doesn't just stay local, it radiates through all those fascial connections and chains. And the common thread here is that none of these things act in isolation. So fascia and nerves are so responsive to pressure and tension and tension. movement patterns so um when tack is well fitted and training emphasizes relaxation awareness and you know we have a rider that is balanced the horse has the best chance to stay free and comfortable and yeah talking about the riders role in this that are actually some studies that are very interesting that um you know they focus on the rider's impact on the horse's biomechanics and our tensions and our horse's tensions are deeply connected and over time that asymmetry can lock down fascial lines and create compensations throughout the body and uh the funny thing is that sometimes you know when i talk to owners um And I asked them, you know, why did you call me? I mean, how did you, you know, feel your horse under saddle? What was happening? Sometimes they don't know what to tell me. They're like, I don't know, something feels off. And I think that they just don't know what to tell me because they are unbalanced and stiff and they're not breathing themselves first. Yeah. And this is why I think that writers should prioritize working on their own body and why I am actually working with a very close friend of mine. She's a center writing instructor. So we actually... I work on the horses and she works on the riders. And I think that works perfectly because we can then address all those tensions and asymmetries. And most of the times they are the same. They're exactly the same.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:30-00:31:20]
So cool. I love that you guys are like bringing that merging together so that the horses and humans because it is it's a huge part of this like puzzle piece is that it's like, you know, we have our own imbalances, we have our own things. And then we sit on the horse together. And it's like, if I'm a little off in my ribs or if I'm a little off in my hips or, you know, the weight of my seat bones or something like that, like, it only makes sense. It's going to throw the horses off as well. And it's not just performance. It's going to cause compensations. My compensations are their compensations. Their compensations will become mine. Like, it's just one of those things where, like... It just makes sense. And so I love the fact that the two of you are working together to help horse and human partnerships, you know, be better all around.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:22-00:31:29]
Yeah, it's really a holistic approach with horses, isn't it? It's always like you have to consider every single piece of the puzzle.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:29-00:32:39]
Absolutely. Absolutely. So you have a lot of experience as well and like knowledge in the headpiece aspect of it. So a lot of times, just like, you know, we mentioned earlier that ribs are a little under discussed in terms of body work. Bridles are also under-discussed in terms of tack. We hear so much about saddle fit and not as much about bridle fit. So let's discuss a little bit of that. First of all, let's start with the whole bitless bridle, bitted bridle discussion, which is a huge conversation in and of itself. But can you explain a little bit for our listeners the differences in terms of like the horse's facial anatomy? So obviously there's a ton of facial nerves, you know, pull tension can affect the rest of the body, all of those different things. Talking a bit about how a bitless bridle can affect like their anatomy, their comfort, those sorts of things, positively or negatively, and then how a bitted bridle does the same.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:40-00:33:44]
Yeah, so it's actually a very interesting and complicated topic at the same time because there are so many different models of bridles that, you know, you have to really consider every single bridle specifically to be able to answer that question. And I think that there's still not enough research, in my opinion, on bridles and bridle fit. I know that some companies have made some studies, but I would love to see a study that it's not, you know, connected to one specific company. Yeah. So that, you know, you have a more how can I say it like unbiased. Yeah, exactly. An unbiased opinion on the topic. So what I've personally seen both in bitless bridles and in bitless bridles is that most of the times they are not shaped correctly, like they do not respect the horse's anatomy at all.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:45-00:34:43]
um you know if you just look at a picture online of you know the horse's facial nerves you can clearly see that every single bridle you own is probably going over some of the facial nerves and um and i also see like um at least here where i'm from in italy we don't have like bridal fitters is that a thing I don't even know if if it's a thing yeah you know again it's like we have so many saddle fitters we have so many discussions on saddles and it's like at least where I'm from as well here in Canada um I don't know anybody that's a bridal fitter um also like bit fitters you know like it's yeah yeah yeah too so important yeah and under like under available or under discussed yeah Yeah, and also, yeah, with bits, also, you find all kinds of bits and some bits, in my personal opinion, should not exist.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:44-00:37:25]
But even the, you know, the simplest bit, like, you know, a snaffle can have, like, can be in different, you know, measures and things. And it can have like a very different material that it's made of. And so all this sort of things, then it's just a conversation that needs to happen. And, um, yeah, I would really love to have more studies about, you know, this specific topic, but, you know, uh, we have to consider that. Um, it's, it, I think that it's not that one is inherently better than or worse than the other. It's all about, yeah, fit, design, and the quality also of communication. I've worked with different kinds of horses, ridden in all different kinds of ways, like with a necro, bitted, bitless, and, you know, um yeah some horses especially performance horses i'm i didn't want to say but i have to performance horses specifically i have found that you know they have the most tmj and jaw and tongue and pole tension like they get you know like yanked so hard at all times and i think that a sensitive hand can make this connection subtle and precise but what we see in most cases is heavy and inconsistent contact and that creates a lot of tension and bracing very quickly and it's actually the same for some performance horses that are ridden bit less like they they it's it's interesting because they have the same tensions like You wouldn't think that, but it's the jaw, the pull, and the mouth and the tongue. So it's really interesting. And so, yeah, I think that it's all based, yeah, as I said, on the quality of communication and how educated you are on the matter, how... Well, you know your horse, how you ride your horse. And so, yeah, obviously, if you have a poorly fitted bridle, it's not going to end well. If you tighten up the noseband too much, that is obviously going to cause problems. But considering a well-fitted bridle, I've seen similar tensions in horses that are ridden in bits and horses that are ridden in bitless bridles.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:37:27-00:38:12]
So for me, when I think of bridle fit, I consider where the crown piece sits first. you know, behind the ears and how much it's going into the back of the ears. I consider like the lines, the sides of the face and how close the bridle's going towards their eyes. I consider the height of the nose band and whether or not it's on the, you know, the bone of the nose or below it. You know, all of those different things. What, Do you consider in terms of fit, like what are some things that you think are properly fitting and what do you think are signs of like ill-fitting headgear?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:14-00:42:24]
Yeah, so I see a lot of very, very tight nose bands and that is probably the biggest thing that I see. Like we have the two fingers rule and sometimes that's not happening. You know, it's not even one finger and that is detrimental. especially if you put a bit in the mouth because then the horse just it doesn't have room you know for the tongue it just it cannot breathe like the horse can't breathe like it's it's a fact and um so that is definitely a big thing I usually I've I've never personally seen horses I mean worked with horses that are written in like drop nose bands or stuff like that so I don't have that hands-on experience with those horses but I can imagine that tensions would be the same, you know, like just the horse can't breathe. And also you are, you know, putting the noseband in a very, very delicate area of the horse. Like you're not on the nasal bone anymore. You're on a carriage. So that's not good. And so, yeah, as you said, like the... You know, the headpiece is another big thing. And I was actually, like... I think that there's not a lot of research in that topic. But what I've personally seen, I've seen horses ridden with a regular headpiece, like a straight headpiece that went also straight into the back of the ears. And I've seen a lot of horses with a lot of not only pole tension, but also ear tension, like ears that just would not move. like and that is obviously connected to pole tension tmj tension but you know the ears are also a very big thing to consider and um and then i've personally tried some um you know bridles with a different design on the headpiece so it was i think a nuclear ligament um relief design like you have two um cushions on you know uh on the cervical spine so on on the pole and then you have like this kind of like relief system that allows the bridle to just not touch in the middle you know i don't really know how to explain it it's like a like a wave shape yeah like candidates ring for the ears yeah yeah yeah exactly And I've seen that some horses that had a very, very big degree of pole tension actually were able to release more and were more free. during work like i had this jumping mare that um you know she always used to had shake like so bad so so bad and when the owner tried this different bridal i suggested to her like why would you try this um i could really feel like in the next session i could really feel the difference in her pull and you know the overall pull tension and she told me that the horse was way way way better under saddle too she would not just you know throw her head around or stuff like that and i've also seen that when my own personal horse i i ride him in all different kinds of ways but but um I tried different bitless bridles specifically for him. And he hated those. Like he was just not, you know, he just hated those. And when I tried this different design, I noticed a big difference. Like he just went straight into the contact in a bitless bridle and that had never happened before. So I think that that is a very, very big thing. And as I said, I would love to see more studies on this particular topic.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:26-00:42:46]
Yeah, absolutely. It's so interesting. I ride both of my horses bitless and my mare in particular, like she doesn't really seem to have a preference. But my gelding, I remember when I transitioned him from bitted to bitless, the first bitless bridle I tried, he like hated it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:42:46-00:42:46]
And I thought, wow.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:46-00:43:25]
I don't only think this is a good idea. Maybe I'll just keep him bitted. And so I continued to write him bitted for a little while. And then I tried a different style of bitless and everything shifted. And he goes so much better than he ever did when he was bitted or, of course, in the other style of bitless bridal. And it is it's like. It's so important to try different things because we never it's no different than us. It's like the way that, you know, pants fit. Like I might put on one pair of pants and think, no, this isn't it. But I'm not that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop wearing pants. You know, it's like I'm going to try different styles.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:25-00:43:27]
No. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:27-00:43:44]
Yeah. It's the same sort of thing. Like we need to kind of. figure out what's going to be best for our horses and really give them the chance to tell us, you know, through their responses, like making sure that we actually listen, not just, I'm going to buy this because it's trendy or because, you know, all my friends.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:44-00:43:47]
Exactly. It's just about, you know, respecting their body essentially.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:47-00:44:10]
Yeah, absolutely. Sarah, I've been asking a lot of our guests this for a couple of years now because we have all seen shifts within the equestrian industry, good, bad, whatever it may be. And I would love to know, what is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:12-00:45:27]
For people to get more educated, right? But that's it. I think that would solve a lot of problems in the equestrian industry and for our horses. You know, I always say that wellness begins with proper education because it gives us the tools to make informed decisions for our horses and horses. yeah I think that this is the biggest thing like get educated and really try to listen to your horse because it gives you all the answers but really there is a lot to unpack so yeah for people to get more educated and I try to do that through you know some online courses and also like resources through my social media but To just, you know, even just saying to people, maybe you should probably try to look at other things, you know, like do your research online. We have so, so many resources now. It's almost 2026, you know, like. It's, you know, we have the Internet. We can look at a lot of resources and, yeah, just try to get more educated. I hope that people will do that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:28-00:45:42]
Absolutely. I completely agree with what you said with the being able to make informed decisions for our horses. I think that empowerment of horse owners is so important. So I completely agree. I love your answer.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:42-00:45:44]
Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:45-00:45:56]
We ask like a rapid fire question for our podcast guests here at WeHorse. It's like the first thing that comes to mind. So the first question is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:59-00:46:11]
It's probably, it's just not really saying, but it's really mind-body connection. It's just the first thing that comes to mind. Like, you know, my work is based on this.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:11-00:46:12]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:12-00:46:12]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:13-00:46:17]
Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:22-00:47:04]
That's a hard one. I think that... I think that it's not really a person. I know it's kind of a cliche answer, but it's, it's really been my mare. I think I've had a lot of different trainers and people, you know, and, and, you know, I, as, as I said, I mentioned a few people in, in, you know, this episode and I really, really, you know, I've loved connected with those people, but I think that, yeah, the, The creature that led me to all of my changes and stuff has actually been my mare, so I would say my mare.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:04-00:47:09]
Yeah. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:12-00:47:20]
To get more educated. She's going to say the community status. Yeah, I cannot stress this enough. And also, turn out your horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:21-00:47:28]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The last one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:28-00:47:34]
For me, horses are mirrors of the body and the mind.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:35-00:47:44]
Yeah, absolutely. Sarah, where can people find you? How can they connect with you? All the things, all the URLs, we'll put in our show notes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:45-00:47:55]
OK, so I am on Instagram at SA Equine Therapy. And also I have my website that is SA Equine.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:56-00:48:11]
Awesome. We'll put that in the show notes. So anybody listening, just scroll down a little bit and click on the link so you can. find more about Sarah and her offerings. And I'm so glad that you came on here today, Sarah. I had a blast speaking with you and reconnecting with you. Like we said, it's been a couple of years.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:11-00:48:14]
Yeah, it's been a long time.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:14-00:48:30]
So it's been great to reconnect. And I'm just, I'm really excited to bring this to our guests because I think, or our listeners, because I think that there's so much in here that's under discussed and so important. And I'm really, really glad that you, you know, shined a light on it here today.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:31-00:48:35]
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really loved doing this.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:38-00:49:11]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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