#102 Laminitis, Insulin Resistance, & EMS with Susan Tenney

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:01-00:00:13]
In this episode, we're talking with Susan Tenney, the founder of Elemental Acupressure, where she has trained animal professionals in five element acupressure and energy work for over three decades.

[SPEAKER 2]
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It's basically like if you can pat your horse, you can do acupressure. It's that simple. So you are enough and you can get started. It's not above you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:25-00:02:12]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Kroll and I'm your host. Originally certified in Shiatsu and acupressure at the Shiatsu Institute of San Francisco, Susan built her equine practice in Northern California before expanding into an international career that blends classical East Asian medicine with modern body work, anatomy, biomechanics, and the energy work system she co-developed with her husband, Jonathan Cohn. Her client roster has included school horses and elite competitors alike, among them the Swiss equestrian teams and gold medal winning teams and riders from the USET. And as her practice grew, Susan began teaching across the US, Canada and Europe, leading equine acupressure certification programs in several countries and teaching for internationally recognized schools such as equinology. She's also the author of Basic Acupressure for Horses, published in both English and German, and with writing appearing in leading equine publications worldwide. Now based in Seattle, Susan leads the Elemental Acupressure Certification Program and a range of online trainings that draw students from more than 40 countries. She is known for making complex concepts genuinely accessible and for the lasting impact her method has on both practitioners and the animals in her care. I'm so excited for this conversation. So let's dive in. Susan, welcome to the We Horse podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you today. I was just telling you before we started recording that I have a little bit of a personal, you know, thing happening with this. And so it's a conversation I'm going to geek out on. And I think our audience is going to really appreciate it as well. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:12-00:02:47]
Thank you so much. I am always excited about this topic. I want to tell you that of all of the conditions that we hear from horse people across the globe over years and years, laminitis and metabolic issues are... Absolutely the number one issue that people want answers for. So it's not back pain. It's not reactivity. It's laminitis because it's a big deal when it's happening in your horses in pain. You want answers and you want them fast. So yes, it's a really great topic.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Before we dive into all of that, you know, juicy content, can you give us a little bit of a backstory for you?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Sure.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Can you tell us a little bit about what it is that you do, how you got started with

[SPEAKER 3]
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this work, all of the things.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. So I've been actually doing this a very long time. I actually fell into it in when I was only, it was less than, I was 30 years ago when I was in kind of in between what to do with my life. And I was dreaming about horses absolutely every night. And I said, I'm not, you know, I'm not a trainer. I'm not a professional rider. And other than maybe cleaning stalls, what in the world could I do for horses? And it was actually my husband's fault. He was reading a book and he said, oh, you could go do horse massage. But this was in 1992 when it was not the thing that it is now. When you told people that that's what you wanted to do, they'd actually just laugh. They didn't think I was being serious. I fell in love from very much day one about how simple touch could transform a horse in front of my eyes. So I, you know, not only just love the idea of being able to help horses and help them feel better, move better, perform better, all that good stuff. But to also know that just by using simple touch, it was not some fancy, complicated thing. It was as simple as just pressing my hands to the side of their body. the acupressure and also some shiatsu, which is kind of a massage technique that kind of puts it all together. I was seeing amazing results. And so I got hooked from day one and 33, I think it is years later. I'm still obsessed. I'm still obsessed. And I think the amazing thing for me to watch is how it is universal. So I have traveled to teach in Canada, U.S., U.K., many places in Europe. We have online students from all over, and it works for everybody. Not every horse loves it or for every point, but to see that, you know, we've used it with horses at World Cup events. We've used it at... You know, world champions. We've used it for dogs and agility championships. And so it can absolutely take horses to that kind of high level of performance. But it's also just that way of connecting with horses. And that's when we remember we get drawn into horses because of our passion and our love for the animal. And it allows, it's a way of connecting to the animal that is so personal and intimate. And yet still really profound. So like I said, once I got started, I started working with performance horses, but kind of. you know, branched out into working with dogs and cats and rescue horses and everybody and traveled a lot with it because I was so passionate about it. So it really has been a great journey.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:06:13-00:06:26]
I love that. Can you give us a little bit of an overview what the difference is between acupressure massage and you know, what many would think of, you know, more of like the, I'm using air quotes, traditional equine massage.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:06:26-00:09:50]
Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, there is no better or worse. And although there are distinctions, the truth is in practice, both camps are actually, there's a huge Venn diagram connection. So the massage people are actually doing a lot of acupressure, even if they don't know it. And a lot of the people that are pressing acupressure points and stroking to do things together are actually doing a lot of the benefits that a more sports massage approach might be taking. So the massage itself, more in the tradition of maybe a Swedish massage or something like that, is more, its goal is usually more about biomechanics. So you're trying to make sure that the muscles have this beautiful tonus and yet also relaxation. So you've got range of motion and an animal is moving in a way that doesn't feel tight or restricted or uncomfortable or uncoordinated. And absolutely that sports massage. or whatever you want to call those terms, there's a million techniques behind that, they can have incredible results for horses that go beyond biomechanical, but usually the focus is, are the muscles relaxed enough that an animal can move well? The incredible thing about acupressure and working with these points on the body that's very similar to, say, getting an acupuncture session, you know, where you lie on the table and the acupuncturist is putting these little itty bitty needles into these places on the body is that you're tapping instead into this deeper concept. You're tapping into this energy that's within the body that's now being measured in scientific studies and scientific research about how this system actually works, which is kind of out of the scope for this discussion. But it is something that has been proven to affect not only range of motion and pain relief and all those kinds of things. But it also has the ability to influence mood, behavior. So a horse's temperament may be what it is, but you can help them feel more relaxed or more balanced within that behavior. And it can also go to working with deeper inner organ health as well. So we have points for lung issues or immune issues. or making the liver or the stomach work better. And so it's pretty incredible that being able to touch the surface of the body at these places that we've identified over thousands of years from several countries in East Asia, we are able to kind of optimize the health of the body. And none of these ever, ever replace your veterinarian's care. That is always part of this process. I am not a veterinarian. I don't try to be. I am not trying to replace that. But I do know that these methods, whether you're using the kind of more traditional massage or whether you're coming with this point work that is sometimes involving strokes as well, that although they might look very similar, their intention is different in their approach.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I just find all this so fascinating. I love speaking with body workers because I just, it's such an important part of animal health and human health that is often overlooked. And so I just, I love these conversations. So if you just see me like... Absorbing everything. I'm taking all this in.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:10:16-00:11:29]
The way I look at it, you know, a lot of people, if they hear what I do, they say, oh, you must work with racehorses. And, you know, like they have preconceived notions about what this is. And, you know, the truth is that horses are professional athletes. Professional athletes basically earn their upkeep by doing stuff with their bodies, by performing. And horses are essentially, and you know, there's exceptions, but essentially most, the grand majority of people have horses because they can ride them or drive them or in ways that are different, interact with them. But they use their bodies to do these incredible things with us, whether we're jumping or dressage or just, you know, teaching a beginner how to walk around the arena. And if they're professional athletes, which I definitely consider them, every single professional athlete in all the big sports teams, no matter what you're talking or soccer or gymnastics or whatever, they're getting body work. They're getting chiropractics or osteopathy or different forms of massage to allow them to optimize what they do. And that's all we're doing is helping them optimize what they do and feel better emotionally as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:11:32-00:11:52]
All right, I want to dive into our laminitis conversation here. And before we do, let's do a couple little definitions for our listeners. Can you just briefly explain the difference between laminitis, insulin resistance, and EMS? And then I'm going to put a little asterisk in a way that most people can understand.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:53-00:16:08]
Yeah, I could get out there really fast. The technical, yeah. I'm going to kind of dial it back. And I think one. One of the things that helps us understand laminitis, EMS, insulin resistance, because they're thrown around in, you know, Facebook posts, et cetera, et cetera, all over. And people don't always know exactly what they mean. Why should they? You know, you're not a veterinarian, so you're not expected to know these things necessarily. It's more my job to kind of come in and help people understand how to deal with these. But I think... With the obesity crisis that we have in our culture today, these are not concepts that are foreign to us. We look at the issues around diet and exercise and lifestyle and know that when people aren't eating correctly or having healthy diets, you can be dealing with obesity. You can be dealing with genetic things as well. So not that it's your fault, quote unquote, because, you know, you were making choices that were not healthy. But this could just be the predisposition. It's certainly true for horses as well. But these kind of choices and this lifestyle can cause this imbalance within the metabolic system so that it's not working at its optimum rate. So what this usually looks like to start with horses is this, it starts with this insulin resistance. Now, insulin is a hormone and its job is. is to help take the sugar that's in the bloodstream, which comes from they eat an apple or they eat the grass or whatever they're eating, and take those sugars that have been partially digested and allow them to enter the cell. It's kind of the carrier or the bridge into the cell. So the cell says, oh, yes, this horse wants to gallop down the field. I can do that because I have the energy I need to do that action. And whether it's jumping over an oxer or, again, just walking around the arena, they need that energy. And so when the insulin isn't working right, and it's a complex story that we don't need to get into, but just understand that that... That transition from the bloodstream into the cell isn't working right. And what you tend to see then is what we call blood sugar dysregulation. So it's not regulated. You have sugar levels not working at the level that they're supposed to. And the problem with that is it causes inflammation. It causes inflammatory cytokines with these things within the blood that is kind of damaging cells. It's not good. It's like that perfect storm that is not to be desired. Just the same as if your doctor tells you, oh, you've got prediabetes, you've got to change things because you don't want to go to diabetes. For the horse, Our biggest concern, of course, is laminitis, because what happens with the insulin is and resistance, which leads to what we would call equine metabolic syndrome or EMS. And there's all sorts of symptoms that say, hey, yellow alert, orange alert, we're going towards red alert here, you know, maybe a crusty neck or weight gain or lethargic, overly thirsty. There's all sorts of signs that kind of warn us. And that can lead to, if it's not taken care of, it can lead to the laminitis. And I think We tend to feel like, oh, my God, it's my fault. And I missed something. And a lot of this we have to realize is just some of these horses are really prone to it. They're vulnerable. So, yes, we have responsibility to learn as much as we can. But we also have to be kind with ourselves and understand we just need to do the best we can. And you don't need to become an expert on it. But, yes, these are management tools that can really change things. So, again. EMS or that equine metabolic syndrome can lead to laminitis if left unchecked.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:10-00:17:15]
This time of year. So right now when we're recording it, it's the end of May. I was telling you before we started recording that we brought a, I'm calling him a foster pony, to our farm in the end of November. And all winter long, he was just that pony menace. You know, he's good. into everything and he's going everywhere and he's, you know, doing all the things. He was such a hoot. And, um, as soon as March hit, bang, um, everything changed. And we're now dealing with a laminic, laminetic episode. Um, That it was like a night and day switch. Suddenly I saw all three of them, my two horses and the pony running along the paddock. And then he stopped and he no longer wanted to run with them. And it's kind of been a tumultuous ride ever since then. What is it about this time of the year, this springtime, that seems to bring out all of the symptoms? Is it just the grass or is it an accumulation of other things?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:16-00:20:59]
It's the grass, for sure. So for those of you who don't know, when you have that new spring grass, it's very high in sugars. And that's why you'll hear about putting on muzzles or not turning them out at certain times. And yes, the grass is a part of it, for sure. But that's usually the straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing. It's that one thing that took it from sub. pathological. So it's all happening and brewing, but it hasn't turned into laminitis yet and then puts it up above. And so if we blame only the grass, we're missing a lot of opportunities. And so, yes, this time of year is absolutely a perfect storm for many horses. And we also have to acknowledge that there are definitely horses that will have laminitis in fall, even in winter. So there are other times and other situations, but our kind of typical or kind of, you know, biggest case is yes, this is kind of laminitis season when we're filming this. It is that springtime. And depending on where you live in the world, of course, if you're down under, you may be thinking that it's going to be six months from now. It's that time when the grasses are new and high in sugar but There's a couple of other things going on that we want to look at with this classical East Asian medicine that is involved with this acupressure. And this is where we get into something that I'm super passionate about. There are lots of different branches of classical East Asian medicine, which in all of them include the acupressure, which is my first and biggest passion. But the branch that we work with deals with what we call the five elements. Now, the five elements are just a branch of the theory. There's no one that's better or worse than the other, but it's a powerful, very ancient branch of medicine that works for people and animals. And the interesting thing about springtime is that springtime is associated with one of these elements, or sometimes they're called phases, in that cycle that we work with in this theory. And without getting too... too deep in the weeds on the theory. There are five of these elements, but that first element in the cycle is called the wood element, and it's associated with springtime. So we have to take, oh, is there anything going on here that's associated with this that could give us some clues? And indeed it is, because the wood is also involved with the hoof. It's absolutely in, you know, it's got different body parts that are associated with that wood element. And one of them is the hoof. The other is the liver. And the liver is also very closely tied to blood sugar regulation. There's, again, I'm not going to get into the physiology of it. You can go, you know, go into PubMed and start doing the research. But just understand that the liver, which is the most important organ for this wood element. Kind of category is absolutely trying its best to keep those blood sugar levels healthy in these horses. And sometimes it's really struggling. And at the time of year when the wood is kind of highlighted or strongest, it can really stumble. And this is when we can end up with these issues around laminitis, or even just kind of edging there, like they're a little foot sore, or these kinds of things that are telling you, yeah, we need to take care of business now if we can. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:01-00:21:07]
What are some misconceptions horse owners have around laminitis and metabolic health?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:08-00:24:21]
Well, I think the biggest misconception is that there's nothing you can do. Like, oh, I have a fat pony and other than refusing him grain, which makes him miserable, there's nothing I can do. And that's simply not true. And any vet would tell you that as well. I'm not the only one who's going to tell you that. But they may not know that there are these active things that you can do that don't have to involve only diet and exercise. Now, diet and exercise are key for sure. You know, yes, you need to watch those spring grasses. You need to watch what else you're feeding. And if we're honest, a lot of us think, oh, my horse isn't fat. Like, oh, he's just fine. And we tend to think, I like him a little round. But these are horses that don't do well round. These are the horses that really struggle in this situation. And so if you need another set of eyes, ask your veterinarian. How is that body score? Is, you know, I like the way my horse or pony looks like this, but is that healthy? And a lot of times I hear this from veterinarians a lot for cats and dogs, as well as horses, that people either don't see the weight coming on, or they're just not being honest with themselves. And they know better. Maybe they've even been told by the vet. And they say, oh, Well, it's not so bad. For horses, this is bad because whereas dogs and cats tend to get diabetes like humans do, what the horses tend to go towards is this laminitic changes. And this is where the laminae or the cells inside that hoof capsule. They are starting to degenerate and have changes way before that horse becomes footsore. The change starts months, if not even years, ahead of that laminitic event. So when we see those outside signs, like the cresty neck or like those fat pads, like, you know, peeing too much, like having low energy, even when their food is good. And maybe last year they had high energy and we're wondering what changed. We want to watch those changes and say, oh, we've got to act now. And it's not to wait until they're foot sore or even worse, you know, full on can't move at all. We want to try to act before those changes because anytime you've waited until laminitis, you know that there has been some cellular damage in those laminae. And we'd love to avoid that if we can. So kind of the best time to get started with this. Is a year ago, but the next best time is now. So just know that there are absolutely things you can do and acupressure, which we'll be talking about, is absolutely one of them. It can make a huge difference in pain relief and recovery for a horse that's actually, you know, there and has the condition, but it can also help to prevent it. I'm not saying it's a one-stop shop. You have to also change the diet and exercise, but absolutely it can help to turn that metabolism around so that you don't end up there in the first place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:23-00:24:39]
Okay. So just to kind of recap a few early warning signs, we have the crusty neck and some, you know, fat pockets. We have lethargy. Like if it wasn't there previously, if you kind of notice a change in energy levels, weight.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:40-00:24:40]
Yes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:41-00:24:42]
Is there anything else that I'm missing?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:43-00:25:30]
Well, what's interesting is your vet's going to have some additional things to throw in and be talking about kind of in Western medical terms. But it's kind of nice to also lean into understanding some of the classical East Asian medicine indications because these are early indications. Because each of those five types, there's wood, fire, earth, metal, and water, all five types have a temperament that is associated with the element. And so, for example, you described your pony as being pretty frisky, like into everything, super active. And we love that.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:25:30-00:25:34]
He's like half the size of my horses. And I'm like, this guy is, you know.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:35-00:29:48]
And he's 20, but he's acting like two, that kind of thing. And this kind of behavior is very much that wood element behavior. And I want to be really clear that when I'm talking about these elements, all animals have all five types. So it's not that you only have one kind, not that at all. All of them have everything. But some of the slices of the pie, as you do your pie diagram, are going to be larger. They're going to be more obvious and they're going to be more to the forefront. And that tends to be where the symptoms end up as well. Not only do you have behavior associated with each of the elements, but you also have these, you know, organ problems such as like laminitis in the holes, etc. And so what we can do is look at issues primarily when we're talking about your typical laminitis. And I'm not talking yet about Cushing's or PPID that has a slightly different presentation. But in these very active animals who get this more typical springtime laminitis, you're usually looking at this combo. With either the wood and or the earth. And that wood is super dynamic. It's super energetic. It needs to move and will get really like impatient and irritable if it's not moving. These are horses that are like, don't keep me. in a box. Give me 24 hour a day turnout. Competition horse? Yeah, give it to me. I love it. I, you know, I want to do more with you. So that's that wood energy that when it's healthy can be an incredible competition horse, or you don't have to be in competition. You can also use it to climb mountains on trails or, you know, whatever you want to do with that horse. They'll be game as long as they're healthy. But those wood types, you can see it start to turn nasty. You might see more crankiness. You might see irritability or impatience. You might see issues around out and out aggression. And it might either be very external, which is the most common, but it can also be these horses that are almost curmudgeonly and kind of grumbling to themselves internally. So that's that wood type that is going to be the real typical springtime laminitis. But there's another type of horse actually that also ends up with these issues because it's not just one organ involved, it's the entire metabolism. And so sometimes you get a horse that looks really, really different, and that's that earth type. We actually call them the good is gold because they're kind and gentle and the one that you put the kids on to learn in the lessons. And these are the ones that kind of look at food and gain weight. They look at the new green grass and they have diarrhea. These are the, so they're really two. different types, but both of those types, that wood type and that earth type, are the ones that are the most prone to this kind of standard laminitis, not dealing with the Cushing's, which goes into another element. And the thing about that earth element animal, it's so hard. To refuse them food because one of their favorite things is food. So they might get nippy. That might be the only time they get aggressive is dinner time. And they're such good, kind guys. They may be stubborn. They may be a little slower to learn. They may have some issues that are challenging. But basically, they're really good-hearted. And we want them to be able to eat their favorite snack. But it may not be in their best interests. So understanding those two kinds of behavior that's really assertive, here I am, I'm in your face, let's go climb a mountain. Or this good as gold, gentle guy. Those are the two behaviors that you think, hmm, if the horse is falling into either of those categories, I should probably take a closer look to make sure I'm not missing something. How is their weight? How is their energy level? Has the vet warned me about body score? Because those are the horses that are more likely to end up with these laminitic changes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:50-00:30:50]
Okay, I love that you brought this into the conversation, which of course you did, you know, with the Eastern Asian concept in that, because that's so much. that has to do with your business and your work. And the thing that I love about it is that that to me is truly the early signs, because if we look at, you know, maybe sort of the Western approach, which is the crusty neck and the fat pockets, that's kind of a little bit too late, in my opinion. It's like, well, you know, something's already occurred for this to have developed. Whereas when you look at, you know, your approach or the approach of your work. That is really that, you know, deeper awareness to say, okay, I recognize this, I recognize these traits in my horse. And so this is something that I can keep awareness of and, and be, you know, take preventative measures rather than be trying to fix something that is already happening.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:51-00:32:43]
Yeah, fixing is always, I mean, obviously, if we can fix something with a good medication or a good protocol, wonderful, that's great. But we always would like to not have anything to fix at all. Because it's those small course corrections that can really blow you away. And it does. It does take something on the part of the caregiver because the caregiver then has to be a good observer. They have to observe behavior because I think there's a very typical thing that I hear with maybe new horse owners or people. I've always done it one way. All horses are the same. And they're like, well, that's just how that horse is. Well, yeah, that is how they are, but they're actually communicating to you what they need. And I don't blame anybody for not knowing all these patterns. You know, we don't learn these patterns in school. These five element patterns are something that are not really part of the Western culture. And yet when you know that they're out there, it's so exciting because you're going to feel like you can go investigate those patterns and actually have actionable, simple things that you can do that can change everything. And maybe the biggest change that you need is not even doing something, you know, yourself, although I'm a huge advocate of that. It might be like, you know, I really do think I need my vet to come out because I think my horse is doing fine, but maybe he's not. And maybe I need another set of eyes on this to see if I need help. And that's powerful. Knowing when to call in help, you don't have to be the expert, but you do have to be observant enough to say, hmm, does this need action? I think it's the big thing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:43-00:33:34]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It is like, I mean, being the caregiver to any type of horse, not even, you know, just the more laminitic or laminitic prone horses, any sort of anything going on, being a caregiver for these. you know, these animals can be extremely overwhelming. There is so many moving parts. And so having, you know, resources of professionals is, you know, it's, it's really something that I know for myself with, you know, whether it's biomechanical issue I was dealing with, with my mayor or, you know, now, um, this more internal, um, issue that I'm dealing with, with, um, you know, this foster pony is it's something that I'm like, okay. I need help. Where do you start, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:34-00:34:30]
And I think it can absolutely be overwhelming for sure. And I think it's sometimes, you know, take this herb and try this technique and listen to this expert and try this training technique. And it can be the swirl of not knowing where to start. And this is where, first of all, you know, It's so important to trust yourself. If you're getting overwhelmed, get help, but also trust your observation. Because I do really feel like a lot of times people are seeing things, but they're afraid they'll either be dismissed by the vet or the trainer or the bar manager or whatever. And instead, it's like, no, if you're spending... You know, seeing that horse five to seven times a week and hanging out with them and watching their every little thing, you're probably seeing things that other people aren't.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:30-00:34:30]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:30-00:35:08]
And they have an eye for their specialty, but you have your heart involved. You have, this is your, you know, this is a family member for most of us. Our horses are family members. And so just really trust yourself to know that if you feel like something's off and you don't know how to solve it, don't feel like you need to solve it yourself, but really do feel like you need to surround yourself with people. Like a veterinarian who will really listen to you and help you and look for solutions. And because for most things, you may not be able to solve everything, but there's almost always a way forward.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:10-00:35:20]
Yeah, absolutely. Other than like avoiding spring grass or limiting grass turnout, is there anything else that can be done for preventative measures?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:21-00:39:26]
Yeah, yeah. So the biggest thing that I'm always going to be talking about is acupressure. Acupressure is really as simple, no joke, as stroking over a point. Gently holding contact. You don't have to press. I know the word pressure is in there, but you don't have to press hard. That's not the active principle. It's just making contact with these acupressure points and then stroking over to kind of finish with it. So it's a three-step process that at its basic level for the beginner is as simple as one, two, three. So stroke, press, stroke. And these points, which are on the surface of the body, have been shown to be connected through the nervous system and through the fluid mechanisms within the body, probably tied to, there's a lot of talk now about the interstitium, which is this intracellular fluid that kind of goes through the body. And it carries messages to the organs and encourages it to come to balance. And it sounds very woo, but the truth is it has been seen in hundreds and hundreds of scientific studies. We know it works. We're still working out how, but we do know. Unequivocally that these techniques works because these points are all, they've been used for thousands of years. And we know that like one point is really good for pain relief and we use it and we see it in front of our eyes. The horse lets out a big sigh and lowers their head and their eyes go half mass because they feel relief. And so the big thing that I am just the hugest fan of is starting with some simple, simple acupressure. It doesn't have to be anything complicated. You don't have to learn the whole system and feel like you're a master of it. That's not the point. You let someone who does get obsessed with all of this choose some good points for you so that you can go in and And not only offer that assistance energetically to the horse, not only have that special bonding time, because these points usually feel really good. And the horses usually start asking for them after they've had them for a while. It's not only that, it's that you will also see like, oh. For the past week, every time I've done that point, he's telling me that it's uncomfortable. So that actually gives you feedback to say, oh, things are active right now. I need to pay extra attention. Maybe I need to call in the vet to see if I'm missing something. Do I need to do blood work? You know, whatever. And so these simple acupressure techniques that literally can take five minutes. We all have five minutes with our horses, if we're honest, especially if it's about something like preventing laminitis. And so that is usually where I really encourage people to be a little daring. Dive into the deep end and just do a little bit of acupressure because it can make a difference. And one of the points that I love best for laminitis or the threat of laminitis, and actually there's two that I'm thinking about, and both of them are points that students have used literally just once. Just once and gone out to the barn the next day and looked at their horses and say they didn't recognize their horses in the past. posture because the body posture was that different having used just one point now that's not going to happen every time obviously I've been at this a very long time to gather those stories from people but it happens regularly enough that we know that a total beginner can go and have those levels of results. If they're consistent, they can really make a difference.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:27-00:39:43]
So with that in mind, so when we look at the acupressure perspective, which not only can impact horses from that physical, you know, biomechanic, postural perspective, but also from a nervous system perspective.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:44-00:39:45]
100%.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:45-00:40:02]
How does like laminitis prevention, how does nervous system stress load, you know, all of those things, how does that play into the possibility of laminitis apart from like grass and food?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:03-00:43:14]
Yeah. And it's huge. We really can't say enough about stress levels for horses. We think of our horses as having a pretty nice life, right? All they have to do is go out and eat grass during the day and maybe take us around the arena a couple times, you know, a couple times a week. Horses don't really see it that way. For so many horses, their lives are actually pretty high stress. One, because they're not living in a natural environment. And they still have it pretty nice. Most of them are no longer going to have the mountain lion take them down. There's a certain level of safety and support that we absolutely offer as humans. But living in boxes was really never the plan of nature to how these horses are supposed to live. And in fact, we do see that horses who have 24-hour turnout do tend to do much better with these laminitic issues simply because they're moving more. There's a lot of movement right now toward working with these track systems that really get these horses not just like going out, finding some grass, plunking their head down and don't move, but instead really going around these tracks and moving like they're supposed to on low quality forage where they have to walk in order to get their nutrition. So, you know, there's all of these kinds of things. So stress loads are partially from their environment. So they're living in an unnatural environment and in many ways very good and supportive, but in ways not entirely natural. But I think that the stress levels can also be there from too much competition, from uncomfortable social situations. Sometimes they have too much, you know. going on in the herd. Sometimes they don't have enough interaction with other horses. There are so many ways that we see horses being under stress that it can be something that we kind of dismiss because it's a lifestyle. We live, you know, we might be living in cities and, you know, like living a life that's not very natural for us either. But for the horses, this can absolutely change that hormonal balance. Because when a horse is under stress and you start raising levels of cortisol, etc., that hormonal balance goes out of whack. And that can kind of trip off the dominoes in terms of setting off the other endocrine problems, such as we're talking about insulin resistance. Insulin is a hormone. And so this can be what kind of ticks off the entire system. Or if that insulin resistance is already there. And, you know, it's been kind of brewing for a while. If you have a high stress situation, again, it can kind of take it above that threshold to where you have that real actual signs of a lemonade crisis.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:16-00:44:43]
One thing I want to add to this, because I've, um, For the past, actually, I was going to say the past few episodes, the past few years of episodes, we have had a lot of experts. on that have been, you know, showing the pros and cons of, you know, horses living in a note. So many, many people leaning towards the fact that being kept inside and, you know, stalls and even small individual turnout being so much less healthy for a horse versus whether it's 24-7 herd turnout, herd-based living, things like that, track systems, all of those different things. And one thing that I want to add to that is, so my little herd lives out 24-7. They can choose when to go into the barn, when they want to be outside, you know, all of that different thing. And that has made the biggest difference on my horses, my mare specifically, since moving out of a boarding barn that... They did go in a lot at night. Now, one thing I do want to add, though, is there are still I just want to make sure that so many people aren't thinking, oh, if my horse lived outside, then everything would be perfect. And suddenly all of their stress would go away because there's so many times that I'll go out to my horses and maybe I'll see them being a little off and I'll think. You know, it actually was really windy last night.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:43-00:44:44]
Yes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:44-00:45:00]
You know, those sorts of things where there is still that stress that comes into play, even if it's a 24-7 turnout. So for those listening, just keeping in mind that if your horse lives out 24-7, it doesn't mean that their environment causes them no stress.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:00-00:46:48]
100%. And I will also say that, let's say you have an unbalanced herd, you have something going on within the social environment of that herd that's super stressful for those animals. And they feel like they can't get away with it because everybody's out in the same space. And you as the person, maybe don't even see it. Maybe you don't know it. So in that situation, that horse might love to be able to come in and be in a box and have that time to themselves. So there are no simple works for everybody answers. And I think anybody that is really working with horses knows you really have to take each case one by one. To see what is that animal's temperament. Looking at wind, which is very interesting you bring that up, because wind is actually the climate that is associated with the wood element. So, yes, I'm going to take it back to classical East Asian medicine because with that wind, it will actually really not bother some horses at all. They'll be out in the wind and just no... No effect. Whereas other horses might really be deeply impacted by excessive wind, especially if they have that wood type behavior. And we have seen horses, I'm actually thinking about a horse who, yes, lived in a completely open stall situation. had the ability to come in and out every time she wanted, but she lived on the top of this hill that had extreme wind all the time. What made the difference for her was putting in those plastic flaps that kind of hang in front of the lean-to so that she could get away from the wind.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:48-00:46:49]
Oh, interesting.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:49-00:47:44]
Her entire body posture changed in one week because I went and said, this is a wood horse who is going crazy with this wind. I found it really hard to even be up on that hill. They put in the strips and within a week, she became a different horse. And that had nothing to do with my acupressure. That was the strips that they put up to give that mare a break from the wind. Whereas the other horses didn't care at all. They were out there like, yeah, whatever, it doesn't matter. So this is where these five elements can be so helpful because you know, oh, I need to pay a little bit of extra attention to these qualities that are associated with the category that my animal has in kind of a predominant state. And it allows you to stay ahead of those things because you're paying extra attention.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:46-00:47:52]
I'm obsessed with this five element thing. I'm going to become the biggest geek on it, Susan. I'm warning you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:52-00:47:57]
Yeah, the aha moments are kind of jaw dropping. I gotta say.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:57-00:48:24]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When we look at movement, so you mentioned earlier about, you know, living oat can often be better for laminitic prone horses than being kept inside because they have a blood flow, the circulation, things like that. What about like if you're noticing a soreness in the horse, should they still be moving? Should they still be doing things? Or is it like, nope, nip it in the bud, stall rest?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:25-00:50:04]
Well, there's a lot of different opinions about that. And I think this starts to get to a place where you really have to look case by case. There are definitely a lot of barefoot folks who are saying, look, what this horse needs is maybe a trim to get that foot in the right shape. And then they'll be moving on it. And there's other people that say, no, we're creating more inflammation every time that horse is walking around. Again, that's really a case-by-case basis. And so it's a really tricky question because we don't want to see the horse hurt. And yet at the same time, we know the reason there is a frog on the bottom of the foot is so that that can pump that blood up through the body. It's supposed to move. The horses are supposed to move. The circulation is supposed to go through those feet. And standing in place is not necessarily a great option, even if it's pain. So, again, yes. you know, shameless plug for acupressure, there are pain relief points that we can use to reduce the soreness while that horse is getting the medical attention they need. Maybe it's, you know, pharmaceutical, maybe it's, you know, dietary, you know, whatever the intervention is that's appropriate from the vet, but we have techniques. Through the pain relief and through the points that actually start to put that body back in better balance that can help in that in-between time while those interventions are taking place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:06-00:50:10]
Could you share a few safe sort of beginner friendly points? Yes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:11-00:57:09]
So first of all, I want to say that when you and I talked, you know, when we scheduled this interview, I absolutely know that the best way to share with all of your listeners about acupressure is to make sure that they have visuals. And since this is a podcast, I will absolutely have this PDF that is available for the listener, and it will have the points that I'm talking about. So if you're going, oh, no, how am I going to know where that is? Just know it doesn't matter. It's going to be all in the PDF. So anything I talk about, you have support for. And if for some reason that PDF isn't there, I don't even know why, just contact me and I will make sure I put these points in your hand. It is basically my mission in life to put points. In people's hands. So I'm motivated on that. But there are two points in particular for the springtime laminitis that are just unbelievable in the way that they can help with pain relief. They can help with hormonal balance. They can help with digestive issues. And these points are two of these kind of mega points. They both cover like so many functions in the body that although we're working specifically maybe to help with foot soreness or an actual laminitis, but you may actually see these points also improve behavior. They may improve, you know, immune function, energy levels, all sorts of other things, just because that's the kind of points these are. Some points are kind of smaller. Train stations on the line. Other ones are like, you know, Grand Central Station. And these are Grand Central Station type points that are kind of do everything types. I will say that out of the four points I'm going to share in that PDF, two of them are kick points. And so please use your safety positions when you do them and also know they are not to be used with a pregnant mare. Save that for your veterinary acupuncturist when a mare is pregnant. We don't do acupuncture until you, acupressure until you really know what you're doing. So it's not beginner friendly. But these two kick points, the reason they're kick points is they're really big points. And so the energy at those points, the blood flow at that point gets kind of in a traffic jam. And so it doesn't feel good. And so you may kind of go in gently and see that horse have a bit of a response. And you're like, what am I doing to my horse? You're not hurting your horse. You're releasing the traffic jam. And it's kind of like ripping the bandage off where it may originally be fairly reactive. You may also even just want to put a hand over like a palm over it instead of kind of actually pressing into the point at all. For the first time or two. But after what you'll see within a couple of minutes, usually is that horse will go into deep relaxation as if to say, oh, thank God. I just had a break. I just had it's kind of like emptying a full bathtub of muck. It's going down the drain and things are clear again. And. It doesn't hold after just one session. You know, these are points that are, if the animal's vulnerable to all these conditions that we're talking about, are best done on a regular basis, at least once a month. And if you're dealing with laminitis, you might be doing them once a day. And I, you know, I have guidelines for that that I'll put in the PDF so we don't kind of take up the whole session talking about the details. The The spleen six, which we call deep harmony, is on the inside of the gaskin. And this point is unbelievable for everything laminitis. It will balance the metabolism, raise energy levels, support overall vitality, even go for the immune system. This point is... Bonkers good. Liver three, which we call dynamic balance, is the point that is particularly good for those more assertive or even aggressive horses with those high energy, in your face kind of energy. Great sport horses, but maybe with an attitude. And you may find that liver three is the one place where they go, and just let everything go. And they will actually start to ask you for that point. They'll actually kind of start backing up to you as if to say, do that point again, because this point is also on the inside of the hind leg. It's really a drag that these two points, which can be quite reactive, are on the inside of the hind leg. So, yes, you absolutely need to use your safety. But the safety moves really easy. I have it in a very, you know, 30-second video. It's super simple. And if you use these points responsibly, you'll be fine. The other two points that I love are on the coronary band. So they're right. above the hoof. And what's fascinating about these two points, which are called ting points, one is for the spleen, one is for the liver. These are channels, energetic channels that they are on. So spleen one and liver one. These points are amazing because when an animal has metabolic issues, Very, very often, you'll see that that point is deep like a hole, as if someone, as if at the coronary band, it was like clay and somebody put a deep thumbprint in. And that is showing you that there isn't proper circulation there. And when you do these points regularly, you'll start to see the tissue actually changing at those points. So instead of having that deep thumbprint, or sometimes they even will be kind of puffy or swollen, they'll kind of instead have this nice springy texture where there's this little suggestion of a dip. But that's it. And then you know you're really making progress. But it can be a way that you actually assess how things are going. So those are four points. There are many, many, many more. And, you know, when you dive into this theory and become like a certified graduate from my program or something like that, the pro level allows you to kind of really tailor each session to each animal and get many, many more points. But you don't have to go there. To Start. Just get started. And these four points that I'll put in that PDF, they can be all you need to make all the difference in the world.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:10-00:57:14]
This is such a resource. Thank you so much for doing that for all of us.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:14-00:57:15]
It's my total pleasure.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:16-00:57:27]
I'm so excited to receive this PDF. The elemental matrix system, Susan, is that something that has already been discussed or is that something else? Like what is that? I'm very intrigued.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:29-00:59:17]
This is just the proprietary name I give to how we look at the elements. And although I have certain tweaks and ways that we do it that are slightly different than other practitioners, it's all based on things that have been done for three to five thousand years. I didn't make up the five elements for sure. That belongs to the entire world. But there are certain ways that we use the elements that are kind of unique to us and kind of interesting takes that we have, things that I've been using for over 30 years and really work and they work for our students and they work for my clients. And so they're just a special way that we integrate it in. But the big thing that I like to think is I think in a lot of the materials that get shared online about the five elements, because I'm not the only one teaching this for sure, is that. They tend to focus on like you have a wood horse. or an earth horse. And the truth is, it's a matrix. There are five elements that are all in there as an organism interacting, just like a spider web, everything is connected. And if you tug on one part of the spider web, you feel it throughout the web. And so That is just my way of describing this interconnected, interrelated system where by supporting one aspect of the health of an animal, you'll see incredible benefits kind of ripple throughout the entire system. And it gets, you know, a lot more complicated than that. But at its base, it's just about... Balancing the body in ways that we've known about for thousands of years.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:18-00:59:37]
Yeah. So cool. If listeners remember one thing from this conversation, because we've covered a lot here, there's been so much that has been discussed. I know I'm going to have to go back and re-listen to this and take notes. But if listeners were to remember one thing from all of this, what would you want it to be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:59:39-01:00:58]
I think the big thing that I really want people to take away from this is don't wait to try acupressure until you have laminitis in your horse. Don't wait. Start today. And, you know, I said earlier, like, the best time to start this is a year ago. But the next best time is today. Because whether it's, you know, acupressure or these other lifestyle changes that are, you know, well known to Western approaches to equine health. Getting on top of this is good for everyone. No one wants to walk into the barn and see that their horse can't walk and they're in that horrible, you know, laminitis position and stance. No one wants their horse to be in pain. And if you start working now. And by work, it's actually like play. I mean, the horses usually like this interaction. Maybe not, you know, the kick points might be a little spicy at first, but then they relax. And if you do them regularly, they won't be as spicy like at all. And so don't wait. Start now. Because you can be making that change and having a hand in keeping your horse the healthiest one on your property.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:00-01:01:20]
Well, the pony's name is Midnight. So Midnight, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm coming for you. Don't kick me. Susan, we have four rapid fire questions. We ask all of our podcast guests at the end. It's just the first thing that pops into your head. The first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:21-01:02:27]
My favorite is step into the circle of care with horses because you belong there. And it is. a motto that I tell anybody that will listen, because I think a lot of times we don't trust ourselves, we don't trust our horses, we don't trust the relationship, because we've been told that we're not expert enough. You belong in that circle of care. And that doesn't mean that you do veterinary techniques. Absolutely not. You should have an entire circle of team keeping that horse as happy and as healthy as possible. A great trainer, a great vet, a great everything. But you are also really important. You're not just there to spend, you know, to keep all of those experts in a fancy car. That's not it. You are there so that you're part of the team. So step into that circle and know that you belong there. And acupressure is one way, but there's a million ways that you can advocate for your horse and just know you can trust yourself and trust your horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:02:29-01:03:22]
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. That was, it's such an important thing for horse owners, any sort of a caregiver to hear. I wish that my younger self could hear that when I was dealing with so many pelvic issues with my mare, to know that my voice mattered. And like you said earlier in this episode is that we know our horses so well. We do. And so when I say. Like, oh, well, I'm kind of noticing this. Like, that's important. So, like, it's to know that your intuition, your observation, your relationship with your horse, all of that is just as important as somebody's credentials. Yes. So thank you so much for saying that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:22-01:03:25]
It will help you choose the right team members.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:25-01:03:26]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:26-01:04:10]
Because sometimes you don't have choices. Sometimes you're living more remote and there's only one vet and that vet doesn't believe in you or whatever. That's when, you know, Dr. Google can help fill in some gaps. But for most of us, we can choose the people. Who believe in us, who listen to us, and then they get to use their incredible expertise that they are super passionate about. And that's why they do what they do, whether it's training or nutrition or, you know, whatever it is, they can bring that and support those horses. And yet we should be selecting people. That want to work with us because we know our horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:13-01:04:23]
All right. Sorry, I didn't make that very rapid fire. Second question. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:23-01:05:31]
Well, I've had some pretty incredible teachers and some pretty incredible, you know, clients. and students and oh my God, the animals that I work with all inspire me. But I usually, when I'm asked that question, go back to Dr. Peggy Fleming, who is a veterinarian in Florida, who was one of my very early teachers. And although I had been exposed to the five elements before her in shiatsu school, it hadn't been framed in terms that I could fully identify with. But she broke it down and said, here it is. This five element model is for horses, an absolute game changer. And she just kind of. Started everything for me. And I will always be so grateful for her incredible dedication and her incredible knowledge. And she's still working, you know, like me, 30 years, you know, she's still doing amazing things down in Florida. So I'm still continually grateful for how she kicked it all off for me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:05:33-01:05:39]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be? And it doesn't have to be laminatic specific.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:05:40-01:06:36]
Right, right. Well, it's interesting because I think the other thing that kind of similar to the step into the circle of care, and it kind of ties back to that, is that you're enough. And it is something that I think a lot of people, with horses kind of feel like they don't know enough or they don't have enough skill or whatever. And one of the big kind of topics that we teach around the earth element, which is part of this whole metabolic thing, which is why it's relevant, is that you are enough and you do have what you need to observe the changes in your horse and to make the changes that you need to help them. And it's basically like if you can pat your horse, You can do acupressure. It's that simple. So you are enough and you can get started. It's not above you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:38-01:06:42]
Please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:44-01:07:08]
They're magical, aren't they? They're just magical. And it's just as simple as that. They bring out the best in us. And, you know, there are situations where they bring out the worst in us, too. We have complicated relationships with them. But in our best moments, they bring out the best of us. They are magical. And they bring out that part of magic that we have within ourselves as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:10-01:07:16]
All right, Susan, I want you to promote yourself here. Where can people connect with you, find out more about your work, all the things?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:18-01:08:10]
So first of all, when you go and get that PDF, which will apparently be down in the show notes, just know that you will have connected into my system. You can always run some. Subscribe. No problems with that. Much more important for you to just have the information. But if you want to stay connected, that's a good way to do it. But we are also on YouTube, we are on Facebook, and we are certainly also on our website at elementalacupressure.com, spelled with one C. Most people want to put two C's in acupressure, but there is only one. But we have all sorts of both starter courses as well as a certification program that takes people from the very beginning all the way up to a super advanced level. So we would love to show you more because there is so much more.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:11-01:08:54]
Awesome. So if you're listening to this right now and you want to learn more, just scroll down through the show notes. You're going to find that PDF link. And then also there'll be the link to the full website as well. So you can check out everything that Susan has to offer. I'm assuming find the links to your social medias through your website as well. And yeah, do all the things acupressure related. Thank you so much, Susan, for being here. Like I said, I am so excited about this conversation. I've taken so much from it. I would love to get you on again. No pressure. The fact that we're recording right now, you don't have to answer. But I would love to continue this conversation because I just find it so fascinating.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:55-01:09:09]
Well, I am always up for talking about this topic because whether it is a specific condition like laminitis or just the general topic of the five elements, there's nothing that I get more excited about. So just know I'm always down for it.

[SPEAKER 5]
[01:09:09-01:09:11]
Awesome. Thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:11-01:09:12]
Thank you.

[SPEAKER 5]
[01:09:14-01:09:48]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com, where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.