#104 Biotensegrative Training with Veronika von Rohrscheidt

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:01-00:00:21]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast. My name is Danielle Kroll and I'm usually your host. However, this week we're bringing you a special translated episode from the WeHorse podcast that's recorded in German. This episode is all about biotensagerty training and I think you'll really enjoy it. So let's dive in.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:22-00:01:22]
In this episode of the Knowledge Podcast, everything revolves around the fascinating topic of biotensigral training. Because we have the initiator here, Dr. Veronica von Rorschheid. Biotensigral training is an absolute trend topic at the moment, and I would also say it offers exciting new perspectives on horse training and dressage riding in general, as well as on anatomical connections that are important for every horse person. No matter what kind of horse you have or which discipline you ride, Dr. Veronica von Rorschheid is a highly skilled equine veterinarian and of course, she is a very passionate and experienced rider herself. Throughout her career, she has dedicated her time to developing a specialized and innovative system known as biotensogrel training. We clarify what exactly biotensogrel training is, why our horses need it, what benefits it brings and how you can get started. I wish you lots of fun with this podcast episode. Dear Veronica, a warm welcome to our podcast. It's great to have you here today and that you're taking the time to introduce us to biotensigral training.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:01:22-00:01:24]
Yes, hello. With pleasure, of course.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:24-00:01:30]
If you're involved in the equestrian world, I think it's quite possible that you've already come across this term. Some listeners...

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:01:30-00:01:42]
might not be familiar with it at all or might not even be able to pronounce it. That's why I'd like to start with the question, what exactly is biotensigrel training? Could you give us a brief overview in simple terms?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:01:42-00:02:40]
It is simply a fundamental form of horse training that is deeply based on the scientific principles of biotensegrity. Or at the very least, this is how we have diligently tried to integrate these complex principles into this specific training concept. When you look at it at the end of the day, it is still essentially horse training. Not every single thing has been completely reinvented from the ground up, but perhaps it is a new way of looking at things. It's been given a somewhat more distinct and specialized direction. A contemporary and sophisticated approach to the subject, not just focusing on the fundamental aspects of physical training and development, but also including the intricate details of anatomy and biomechanics. And from that foundation, we've tried to create a comprehensive and detailed training guide, a complete and structured training system. The goal is to create a comprehensive framework for thought, to provide people with the unique opportunity to truly and effectively train their horse in a way that fundamentally preserves its long-term health and well-being.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:02:40-00:02:52]
That means that's the goal. So if I now ask myself, okay, biotechnical signal training doesn't really mean anything to me at first. Why should I do this with my horse? What benefit does it have for me and my horse?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:02:52-00:04:07]
Essentially, we want to teach horses movement patterns that preserve their health, basically what nature would otherwise do, so that the horse's body is... simply used by the horse itself in the way nature originally intended. And it's similar to us humans. Unfortunately, horses also suffer from diseases of civilization. That means horses nowadays live quite far removed from nature's blueprint, just like we do. We sit far too much. We sit in front of the computer, the phone, the TV, and we don't move enough. And when we do move, it's often incorrectly because compensations develop. And the same thing happens with horses, because of course, nature did not intend for us to keep them in stalls, nor even in run-in sheds or unlimited spaces. That's not part of the natural blueprint. But of course, just like with us humans, this leads to problems. For some individual horses, these specific concerns may seem like relatively minor or insignificant problems at first glance. But for many other horses, it can definitely lead to very serious and potentially life-threatening health issues that can drastically and negatively impact their overall quality of life. That is precisely the core problem we are facing. And with this specialized training program, we are simply trying to find a way to effectively compensate for that underlying physical challenge. That means horses, to get them back into the shape that nature originally intended.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:04:07-00:04:28]
Yes, that definitely sounds very exciting at first. And also in such a way that this training is relevant for everyone, so that everyone can create benefits for their horse or improve their horse's movement. No matter whether the horse has an illness, lameness, an injury or anything else. But also if, let's say, you think you actually have a healthy horse, so it's basically suitable for everyone, right?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:04:28-00:05:25]
Yes, it's also simply preventative. Even if I firmly believe that my horse is in a state of perfect physical health and peak condition, I can at least take the time to carefully examine and reflect upon the fundamental underlying ideas and core principles and try to gain a much deeper understanding of the complex motivations that truly lie behind them. And then with this newly acquired knowledge, simply try to look at my horse again and see if really, in fact, that everything is okay. And it's also not that we necessarily want to create a new training method, like you do exercise one, two, three, and then exercise four, five, six. Rather, I think it's much more important to understand what it's all about and to create understanding for a horse's psyche, but also for a horse's body and the way horses move. And for many, that's simply still not enough. Knowledge is lacking to be able to help themselves in many situations or also to be able to assess whether you're on the right track or if the path might need certain changes or adjustments.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:05:25-00:06:16]
Yes, you've mentioned so many things now. We definitely need to dive deeper into them so that we can at least start to understand here on the podcast what it's all about. You had a really good example with postural issues in people as well. So the idea that even a healthy person can have poor posture. Let's just say for now that you're actually doing well and maybe you even do sports and so on. And yet, of course, we still sit a lot. And did I understand correctly that even if I will, for example, I also sit at my desk a lot and I still do sports. But of course, it can happen that you develop poor posture. Let's say in people, you always sit a bit slouched. If you then... of course, train in the wrong direction, or let's say, don't resolve it at first, the tension and blockages that arise as a result, but just keep going somehow. Then you do muscle training, but actually train the wrong muscles, then it basically doesn't get any better. Can you imagine it being similar with horses?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:06:16-00:07:01]
Yes, exactly the same. If I simply use my neck muscles, everyone knows that trapezius pain to stabilize my shoulder blades and my upper and thoracic area, at some point I will get neck pain. And if I then, so to speak, move or train within this movement and stabilization pattern, no matter what I do, I am using the wrong muscles to stabilize my upper body or my shoulder blades, then no matter what I do, I will be training the wrong muscles and the wrong way to stabilize myself. And it's exactly the same with horses. If the horse is stuck in an incorrect stabilization pattern, meaning it doesn't use the right muscles at the right moment, and I simply train the horse, no matter what I do, it will always be wrong. It will move incorrectly and as a result will not be trained optimally, properly or correctly.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:07:02-00:08:11]
Very good. Then I think we're already heading a bit in the direction where you get an idea of what this is about. Let's say I have a horse that at first glance I would say is a healthy horse and I ride it, let's say, in dressage. And maybe sometimes I take it out for a ride. And of course, in my riding training, I still try to create healthy movement patterns. So what people always say, riding the horse over its back so that the top line arches and the horse steps from behind forward into the contact. I would say that's the main goal for... All dressage riders, the biggest aim is for the horse to move freely and relax through its body. But that would mean that maybe even if we sometimes think that's already the case, because of these habits, like when we sit too much, for example, that maybe it's actually not the case after all, right? Maybe we can go into that a bit more. You also often hear the term carrying fatigue in this context, or it doesn't even have to be full-on carrying fatigue. But in general, people always say you want to train your back, build up your back muscles, and so on. Maybe you can go into that a bit more, the approach in biotensquale training, that maybe it's not always as much the case as we would actually like to think. And maybe we just think that it is.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:08:12-00:08:58]
Yeah, well, probably a lot of people feel understood or addressed right now when I say that it's so difficult to really ride a horse from back to front to the bit. A horse where you really give it space, you drive it forward, and the horse stretches into the bit. This ideal image, if we're being completely honest, is very rare. The case, if we're really not lying to ourselves and it's not us creating the connection to the horse's mouth, but the horse actually reaching out to us. And that's the reason for it. Not because we're all terrible riders and always do everything wrong. And it's not because we still haven't understood inside leg to outside rein, but because many horses are simply not capable of it. Namely due to compensation. That means when it comes to the torso, I'm not necessarily always talking about carrying exhaustion, but also simply about a dysfunctional state or a weakness in carrying.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:08:59-00:09:00]
I just need to brief.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:09:00-00:09:08]
jump in here. That happens often, that technical terms are quickly mentioned. Could you briefly explain what a dysfunctional state is? I think not everyone knows that.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:09:08-00:10:26]
As the name suggests, it's a state that is not optimal, not entirely healthy, but rather not functioning fully. It's conditioned in the horse's body. That's a simple way to put it. It could be better. It could be fitter. And of course, there are all shades of gray in between. Myofascial dysfunction basically describes, in a nutshell, the concept of carrying weakness or carrying exhaustion, but it leaves a bit more room for shades of gray because carrying weakness or carrying exhaustion already sounds pretty final. And that's often not the case. It's simply just a state of not being fit from just a little bit to really severe. And I think that really describes this. This term myofascial means that the condition of the muscle fascia system is not optimal in varying degrees. And what we want from the horses carrying themselves with a lifted trunk over the back, the energy flowing from behind to the bit, actually everything in the horse's body really has to be working optimally for that to truly happen. If the horse is already in a slight state of compensation, it doesn't work anymore. It just doesn't work at that point. And then the horse simply can't really perform that in a genuine way. And then we have to try to somehow piece things back together, and we end up constantly tinkering and experimenting. But in reality, it's not actually genuine. And often it's not even because we're simply doing something wrong while riding, but rather because the horse's body just isn't truly capable of it.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:10:26-00:10:54]
Compensation, we need to explain that again now. But that was already a great... Explanation. Thank you very much for that. We can dive into that now more specifically, so to speak. How can we imagine it if we say, well, you put it well, that through certain compensations, through certain circumstances, the horse might not even be able to do it, even if we can ask for it very well from the saddle or can actually tell the horse what we want, but it just can't manage it. So what are such compensations or how do they come about?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:10:54-00:14:08]
So essentially, to put it as simply as possible, there are basically two muscle, different muscle groups in the horse's body. On the one hand, there are muscles called stabilizing muscles, and on the other, there are mover muscles. And as the name suggests, the stabilizing muscles help to stabilize the body and the mover muscles are there to move it. And myofascial dysfunction is, among other things, when the system gets out of balance. That means the stabilizing muscles are no longer doing their job and the mover muscles have to step in and take over that job. This leads to a situation where if you have to stabilize, which is more of a static task, you end up holding tension and of course you can no longer move. And that limits movement and then leads to reduced mobility in the horse's body. And that's essentially what we see as compensations. And these compensations are quite varied. But in the case of what we often refer to as carrying weakness, it means that this large trunk supporter or the muscular sling that holds the trunk between the forelegs is not fully functional. It's important to know that the horse's trunk, meaning this entire large heavy mass, is not connected by bone. to the forelegs. That means the trunk essentially hangs between the shoulder blades and forelegs only by this muscular fascial sling. And if this muscular fascial sling, which acts like a hammock from which the trunk hangs, is not functioning properly, the trunk sags downward. This results in a kind of hollow back posture in the horse's trunk. This is already a significant to severe compensation because the horse's spine is not designed for that. It's just like our own spine. It's not designed for us to sit all day in a turtleneck posture in front of the computer. That's why we also develop these problems, which often start around our mid-30s, like herniated discs or pinched nerves, tension, lumbago, and so on. And it's actually quite similar for horses as well. And how does the horse react to this sagging of the trunk when its trunk support sling, also called the thoracic muscular sling, is not fully functional? It compensates. Otherwise, the trunk would simply collapse between its front legs. That means the horse then uses all the structures that connect the shoulder blade to the trunk. To generate stability. That means the muscles that connect the shoulder blade to the trunk become hypertonic. In other words, they simply become more tense, entering a holding tension. Fascial connections, these structures are significantly reinforced, shifting away from elasticity toward much more stability, which essentially means they develop a much higher collagen content. And this process actually consequently results in a state of more stability. But this comes directly at the expense of their overall mobility. That means the shoulder blade can no longer move. well on the horse's trunk and then the horse can no longer move well. And unfortunately what also happens is that the horse's shoulder blades, especially in the upper part at the withers, are really pressed against the trunk and the withers, making it impossible for the horse to lift its trunk anymore or to put it in rider's terms, it can no longer move through its back. This means that these shoulder blades pressed against the withers sit like a clothespin that you put on the horse at this spot, forcing the horse or the horse forces itself into an extended posture, that is, into a hyperextended position. In comparison, for humans, this would be like a swayback, and that actually prevents the horse from being able to move through its back.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:14:08-00:14:29]
Wonderfully explained. Thank you very much. So that means we can picture it again in our minds. You can almost imagine it with yourself too, if you're on all fours on a mat or something, and you picture your torso, your rib cage, and basically, yes, your trunk. So maybe you can explain that again as well. What exactly is meant by the trunk? That's mainly the area just below the withers, right?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:14:29-00:15:59]
So the trunk of the horse, also called the thorax, is just like ours. Also, it's the spine, specifically the thoracic spine and the lumbar spine, and then the ribs and below that, the sternum. That means it's like a basket, or that's why it's also called the rib cage, in which the organs are located. So all sorts of organs, like the digestive organs, lungs, liver, everything is in there. And of course, that has an immense weight, as you can imagine. A horse's intestine, as we know, is huge, and so are the lungs. Heart and liver, all of those, spleen too, are all... relatively heavy organs. So the thorax of a warm blood horse can weigh up to 300 kilos, and that has to be supported somehow against gravity. And that's normally done by this thoracic muscular sling. But if it no longer works properly, the body has to compensate somehow. And the idea with the strengthened, the actual back muscles, meaning the muscles that really sit on the horse's back, right where the saddle goes, those aren't meant for carrying weight. They're muscles for forward movement. In fact, it contracts and relaxes, allowing the horse to move forward, so it's also a movement muscle. It's not there to stabilize the withers, but of course we often see that it becomes tense or is tense in horses with poor carrying capacity or poorly trained horses. This happens because it is then recruited to hold something to support the trunk, and in doing so, it becomes tense and painful. And you notice this when saddling or grooming, that the horses suddenly hollow their backs even more because they are indeed experiencing pain there.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:15:59-00:16:43]
Okay, great. Let me briefly summarize that again. So actually, there is the trunk support in the horse, this fascial muscle sling that is supposed to hold the trunk because it is not fixed to the forelimbs. If that no longer works properly, we'll get to that in a moment, why it actually doesn't work as it should in many horses today, then the trunk basically sags down. You can imagine it like I mentioned before, when you're on all fours and all the weight sinks down between the shoulders. And then, of course, you try somehow to hold it up. You can also imagine it as if you were pulling your own shoulder. shoulders together and your back and somehow everything gets tighter and more tense. And then, of course, you can imagine if you're supposed to do sports and move really freely, openly and loosely, it becomes difficult. That's actually the fundamental problem.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:16:43-00:16:44]
That's exactly right.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:16:44-00:17:26]
Okay. And then there are two more things that are important to me. First, exactly, you also said that you can compare it a bit to a swayback. What I have noticed, I've had the chance to get to know this topic better through you. We also produced a course together, which you can and should definitely check out on WeHorse. If you're not trained to see something like this, in my experience, you don't notice it at first glance. Not that obvious at all. So you look at your horse and think, oh, actually, he looks pretty good. And I wouldn't say he has a sway back. So it's not always, not for everyone, so clearly visible that the back is completely sagging, like a bathtub, so to speak. But there are a lot of gradations, as you said. I think it's important to emphasize that again.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:17:26-00:18:55]
Yes, well, that's not every horse with a dysfunctional condition necessarily has a swayback. It really depends on what type of tissue and muscle tone the horse has and how that affects the outward appearance. But the dysfunctional condition is still there. I also don't put a huge emphasis on always assessing a horse while it's standing still. That gives some clues, but it's much more important to see and feel the horse in motion. If your horse simply moves with a short dull gait, when the toe of the horse's front leg touches down first, when the hind legs have a very short stance phase, when the shoulder blade barely moves, when the... the shoulder joint hardly opens and closes during movement, when the horse always looks a bit downhill in motion, always seems to stumble a little or tends to stumble or has problems with moving forward. Or conversely only runs, then these are fairly reliable signs that there is already a dysfunctional condition. If the horse is difficult to flex or bend, or especially if it is difficult to flex or bend to one side, if the horse has contact issues, if it keeps lifting itself out of the contact, if the horse has trouble maintaining rhythm and tempo, so for the most part, all radiability problems can in fact be traced back to this, explained by this, or rather, if you improve this condition, you can also improve those issues. And you don't necessarily have to do that by practicing, practicing, practicing while riding. Instead, you can actually show the horse, look, if you move a little differently, use yourself a bit differently, everything becomes easier. And horses actually learn this very quickly.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:18:56-00:19:30]
And you just said that you don't even have to do it by practicing, practicing while riding. In fact, you can't really do it that way. By practicing, practicing while riding, right? So maybe we can go a bit deeper into this. Why is this explanation necessary? From the ground, I would call it, or this, maybe we should briefly describe what you can actually imagine here. What does biotensorial training mean? So if I say I want to do this with my horse, what does that actually look like? I think that's not really clear to everyone. It actually starts from the ground. Maybe you could explain a bit how one can imagine biotensorial training and why it works. that way.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:19:30-00:20:21]
So from the saddle, it's simply difficult because you're basically sitting on the horse with all your weight and pressure. That means you're increasing the downward pressure even more. And horses learn from the very first day of their lives to yield to pressure. For example, you take the halter, they yield to the pressure, we pull on the reins, they stop, we press with the leg, they move forward or to the side, we let them stand still. In any case, they also respond to pressure among themselves and usually by yielding. And then they're supposed to not yield to pressure, namely the greatest pressure, our rider's weight, the saddle's weight, but instead arch their backs against it. And purely from a learning physiology perspective, that's already difficult for a horse to understand. And it's not logical. That means it really has to be taught and trained for horses that don't naturally have this stability in their core. There are still some horses here and there that have this stability, but many no longer do.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:20:21-00:20:58]
Maybe we can briefly touch on that again. Sorry to interrupt for a moment. You can already tell it's a very complex topic with many directions and questions. But since you just mentioned it, there are still some stable horses here and there, but not as many anymore. That brings us a bit to the question, why is it that so many horses have this compensation that they somehow have to try to stabilize their trunk differently? Why does this muscular fascial sling of the trunk support no longer work in so many horses the way it naturally should? You might think the horse is built that way. Why doesn't this muscular sling hold anymore so that such compensations arise in the first place? I'd like to briefly go into that again.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:20:58-00:24:11]
There are two main causes. which unfortunately often coincide. Breeding and husbandry. Breeding has changed in the last 20 years, very much in the direction, and this is true for almost all breeds, towards more mobility. That means we want horses that move bigger, more elastically, they're more comfortable to sit on, easier, easier to handle, easier to ride, more rideable because everything is somehow softer. Of course, this results in less stability because what makes a horse more elastic is its fascial tissue. So it's not necessarily the muscles or the bones, but rather the tissue in between. That means joint capsules, ligaments, tendons, the connective fascial coverings of the muscles. This is the three-dimensional fascial network in a horse's body. And this has changed through breeding. And when that becomes softer and more elastic, it also loses stability. And what we would like is for the horses to be very elastic in their legs, but still stable in their torso. But unfortunately, that doesn't work because through breeding, I can only change the tissue itself. And that means it doesn't just affect the legs, but also all the fascial structures, joint capsules, ligaments, and tendons in our torso. And especially this torso, the main trunk supporter, the part of the myofascial muscle sling that supports the torso. That is the serratus muscle. That means it's the sawn muscle. That's the German name. And it's called that because it is heavily interspersed with tendinous tissue, since it is also supposed to passively support the torso. With these tendinous parts, the problem, however, is that these tendons Tendinous parts are now also becoming increasingly elastic due to breeding. To put it bluntly, you could say that in the past we had steel cables there, now we have hair ties. And that's why it can easily happen that the torso collapses, especially if the muscle that's also involved there isn't doing a good job. If it's not strong enough, or sometimes maybe the horse can't even activate it at all. And that brings us to the other point, posture. That means this low stimulus posture that we have, horses on flat ground, small paddocks, square stalls, square paddocks, square pastures, square arenas. Without enough proprioceptive input, that's a tricky word I know, but without enough stimulation into the system, the system adapts. That means it gets lazy, just like with us when we sit in front of the computer all day. The system adapts to our usage. Form follows function. The way I use myself is the way I will develop. Nature would not have allowed that. Nature keeps horses fit by having them constantly move over different types of ground, exposing them to the seasons, searching for food, fleeing from predators, play fighting, and so on. Nature challenges the horses, and in doing so, prevents them from falling into these dysfunctional states, just like with us. Why people in indigenous tribes who live in harmony with nature do not experience all these civilization diseases that we have. That is exactly what happens with horses as well. These are diseases of civilization. And once recognized, you can do something about them. And we do. We humans, we then try to count. interact this and live more consciously, become fitter, expose ourselves to more stimuli, train, do targeted training, and we succeed with that. And you can actually see it the same way with horses.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:24:11-00:24:43]
Great. Thank you very much for the explanation. So you can imagine it a bit like this. This trunk support, this serratus muscle, and the fascial muscle strands. It's a bit like the deep muscles in humans, so to speak. So as you just said, through nature, through all these things, the horse is repeatedly thrown out of balance and has to stabilize itself again and so on. And because of that, it is basically trained and activated by nature. And that's exactly what many horses are missing in their current living conditions. And this is further intensified by breeding practices, making everything somehow softer in the horse.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:24:43-00:24:44]
Exactly, precisely.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:24:45-00:25:33]
Okay, great. Yes, so now let's go back to what does biotensegrity training actually look like or why does it require this explanation from the ground up? I think you can already kind of imagine it now, as you just said. Maybe we also need some guidance, perhaps from a physiotherapist or someone who tells us, hey, tense up here. Maybe you can't even activate that area anymore or move like this. That's basically how we have to do it with the horse as well. If I now notice, to be completely honest, that my horse, he stumbles from time to time, or yes, he's actually quite sensitive, always on his back when grooming, or yes, his posture isn't that stable, or sometimes I actually feel like he's a bit on the forehand or he's somehow a bit stiff. These are all signs, even though as someone inexperienced, you might not notice them right away from the outside. Yes, and if I now say, okay, then I have to somehow react. activate this core support, that would be the logical next step, right?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:25:33-00:25:35]
Yes, exactly. That's one part of it.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:25:35-00:25:52]
Exactly. That's one part of it. Maybe you could go into that again because it's not quite that simple after all. There are still a few things you have to do beforehand in order to even get this core support functioning properly again, correct? So maybe you can give us a bit of an overview. What exactly do you do during biotensegrity retraining?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:25:52-00:26:45]
So the essential part is the compensations that have developed. Explain to the horse to let go of those compensations and to choose this original plan A of the active core support again. That's really the main point. That's actually exactly how it's done with people who have such compensations as well. That means we create awareness of the compensation, help the horse to release this compensation, this tense mover musculature. And at the same time, to make this other plan, meaning the active plan, the thoracic muscle sling, the new plan A again. But for example, you can only activate the serratus if your trunk can lift itself between your shoulders. However, if your shoulder blades are pinned to your trunk and you can't actually create any movement, then the core support muscles can't become active either. That's the crux of the matter. That means the compensation actually prevents the correct movement or stabilization process.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:26:45-00:27:00]
So just to recap. Compensation means, for example, that the horse presses its shoulder blades against the trunk to somehow try to hold the trunk up or tenses the chest muscles to keep it elevated or tightens the back muscles. to hold it up.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:27:01-00:27:14]
Basically anything that any muscle group you could say can then become tense that connects the trunk with the shoulder blade or the foreleg. And this is what leads to those short, stiff movements with reduced shoulder freedom.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:27:14-00:27:38]
So how do I do that now? How do I tell my horse, look, this muscle of yours is tense, let it go. Because that would be the first step to let go of this compensation, this holding of the shoulder blades, back, chest, whatever it may be, and just relax it for the horse as well. It just occurred to me it's actually a bit counterintuitive because then the trunk would initially sag even more, right? So you somehow have to tell it to let go first.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:27:38-00:29:39]
Exactly. And that is precisely what makes the whole thing a bit more complicated. As a human, I can do relatively little to change a state of tension in the horse while it's moving. That means the horse itself, or rather the horse's nervous system has to change that. But what we as humans can do is become the trainer, the personal trainer for the horse, and use communication techniques to explain to it, let go there. And it works in a similar way. This means that by using a pressure release system, the horse is shown and taught exactly how to let go, but they also understand the structure itself. A shortcut in bodies, meaning not every movement or muscle state, is always controlled by the brain, but rather through a shortcut via the spinal cord. And that's where we can intervene by applying so-called overstimulation impulses into the muscles, onto the fascia, and thereby generating a release that is a letting go of this structure, a resetting back to zero level in the state of tension. And this is possible through touch and especially through touch during movement. That means we show the horse similar to what a personal trainer or a physiotherapist would do with you, that in this moment of movement, you let go here. And at the same time, we ask the horse, but for a movement that activates the trunk supporter, the serratus. And in this way, we essentially remove the compensation and simultaneously offer the alternative idea. If you do this well and skillfully, it can happen within minutes. It's like installing new software, so to speak. But then comes the training, and that requires repetition. On the one hand, to turn this movement idea into a movement pattern, that means it becomes the horse's own idea. And also to really train the trunk supporting muscle or this thoracic muscle sling, repetition is necessary. And that's why at the end of the day, it's up to each horse owner to do this themselves. So no therapist can do it for you. Instead, you have to do it yourself with your horse. At first, it sounds incredibly complicated, but it really isn't. In fact, it's actually based on the basics of horse communication.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:29:39-00:31:12]
Yes, that's really great. That's actually the nice thing about it, I think, that you can and actually have to practice it yourself with your horse. But I also think it's very encouraging that it's possible to do it yourself. Exactly that. You can also check it out in our course, of course. Here's a quick reminder again. So I can really only recommend watching this course on our platform. There, of course, you get much more as well. A visual impression. So Veronica also explains in detail how to recognize these compensations, even in motion, and how to get started with that and so on. So just to quickly add that in between. Now I wanted to explain once more, you just mentioned pressure release. So pressure as in applying pressure and release yielding. Maybe we can go into that a bit more in a moment since you just said it's based on the basics of horse communication, what that's all about and how you actually explain it to the horse. Exactly like what you were mentioning just a moment ago. If you take a second to imagine it for yourself, I believe it is quite simple to compare it to those times when someone takes the time to point something specific out to you. By the way, you always tend to, if you happen to slouch, they might place a gentle hand on your back and say, look, if you relax your shoulders, pull them back or whatever, then you can move much more freely and fluidly, stand up straighter and just move more easily, something along those lines. And then you realize, oh, it's actually there. And someone explains to you how it would be better. And yet you don't just do it from day one forever because it's a pattern and you've gotten used to it. That means you keep slouching again and again. And that's the practice you're talking about, basically, that you have to keep reminding the horse again and again at the beginning. And at some point it can basically do it on its own. Right.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:31:12-00:32:04]
Exactly. For example, with people, this is also called directed focus. Anyone can try this themselves with a partner. And now try when I tell you to breathe under your right shoulder blade. And then you'll see that it's difficult to impossible. But if someone puts their hand on your right shoulder blade, suddenly you can breathe under your right shoulder blade. Because then the control is there in that spot. And it's exactly the same with the horse. That means through targeted touch. And once the horse has understood that the touch means something, I can tell my horse anywhere on its body, hey, relax here, let go here, do something different here. And in the end, it's not just one plus one, relaxing under pressure, but rather allowing the pressure to pass through and ultimately expanding and becoming bigger under pressure. And then we arrive at what we actually need, an expansion, a three-dimensional expansion within the horse's body that might sound pretty out there right now.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:32:04-00:32:07]
But it really just means that the horse can move freely in all movements.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:32:08-00:32:49]
Simply move freely in all dimensions. That is ultimately the goal of tensorial training at the end of the day. We want a competent horse's body, one that can simply move competently, that can simply use its body and to do so in whatever way it wants at that particular moment. And then what we all always want emerges, lightness. And then a horse can easily accomplish what we imagine when we ride. But if the horse's body is full of compensations, then it simply isn't easy. And then you have to practice and practice and practice. But if the horse's body works like that of a cat, then it's not so difficult anymore. If the horse is genuinely and fundamentally proficient and capable in the way it handles its movement,

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:32:50-00:33:27]
Yes, that's a beautiful image. I can confirm that as well. I had the pleasure and was allowed to ride your mare once. And that was truly pure lightness. So just noticing that. You can imagine it yourself as a human being. If you have no tension, if you don't feel like your shoulders are always being pulled forward, If you're simply relaxed, then you can just start moving. And completely free, you can jump and do anything you want in balance and full of lightness. I think that's a beautiful image also with the cat. All right, then let's go over it again briefly. We were still talking about pressure and release pressure and yielding. Why is this such a basic communication system for horses and how can you use it in tense girl training?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:33:27-00:35:48]
Well, horses also operate through this. Everyone has observed this in a herd before. That means one horse pins its ears back, stands tall, and the other horse yields. That means the horse sends pressure toward the other horse, and the other horse responds to the pressure and yields. And we make use of this principle. That means we apply pressure, a touch, just enough so that the horse notices it's a request. How much that is can vary greatly. It differs a lot from horse to horse and even from day to day. That means we always have to be in good communication with our horse. That means we do it just like if I were to place my hand on your right shoulder blade now or on your trapezius or on your forearm or your upper arm, you would know, okay, that is the point of interest. And then I apply pressure. As I said, with a horse, it's just a touch or maybe even less. And with the next horse, I really have to, these are perhaps also the ones that when being groomed, really like it when you rub hard. I have to apply significantly more pressure so that the horse understands, oh, okay, I'm supposed to do something about this. And then normally. When we apply pressure somewhere, the horse reacts with counterpressure. At first, it tenses up briefly, not knowing what's happening, then realizes, okay, the pressure isn't going away. And then the next solution the horse offers us is to let go. And we reinforce that by immediately releasing the pressure. And that becomes a system. That means the horse understands. A touch equals a request to me. I'm supposed to find a solution. And then it's up to us to confirm when the horse offers the correct solution. Of course, we don't wait for the perfect solution, but for something that's already heading in the right direction. And we reinforce that. That means in the end, it's negative reinforcement. And that's a learning philosophy, how one can learn or how living beings learn. The good thing about it is, and that's why it works so quickly. And we can hardly comprehend how you can, as you've seen, sometimes reprogram a horse so fast. Because it's not just negative reinforcement, but because what we're asking for is a letting go. And when the horse has understood that and lets go naturally, intrinsically, also inside the horse itself, in its feelings, a positive feeling arises, a sense of well-being emerges. And that in turn is then positive reinforcement. And it comes from within, making it very powerful. And that's why horses learn things like this very quickly.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:35:49-00:36:07]
Great. Yes. Thank you very much. I found that very understandable, actually. And you can imagine when the horse notices that it feels good, it will want to keep creating that feeling. It's like once it has understood, I can let go here. Then it feels so good that at some point it starts practicing it on its own, so to speak, or recreates it by itself.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:36:07-00:36:59]
You can observe this wonderfully often even after a short time when you've basically explained to the horse, just relax your upper neck and let go of your lower neck. And the horse lets go there for the first time. And then how they enjoy it when suddenly their neck and head are allowed to hang down in the position that nature actually intended for a horse. And suddenly a deep sense of well-being settles into the horse. You know this from yourself too, that when you really stretch or when decompression occurs in your body through a treatment or a strong stretch, this sense of well-being that arises, horses experience that too. And then they don't even want to leave this posture anymore. At first, and then they really enjoy just standing or walking with their head hanging down. That, of course, doesn't mean that we then, we don't want the horses to go around their whole lives with their heads hanging down. We just want the horses to be able to do it.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:36:59-00:38:21]
Yes, that's also important to mention. Yes, I think that's a striking example. For me too, biotensile training was something new. And then to see that, that's the image people often associate with it. First, you walk alongside the horse at a walk, basically placing your hand on it. That's more or less how it looks from the outside. That's the thing with the pressure, as we just explained, it's a constant communication. And ideally, the horse relaxes, meaning its head is low. And what I also found very impressive was the figure eight pattern. So when you do that at a walk, you can really feel. how relaxed it is. The neck is such that the nose swings back and forth, tracing a figure eight pattern. Maybe we can touch on that briefly again, because I think it might be interesting for many people or that many are familiar with the topic of a horse moving on the forehand. When is a horse actually moving on the forehand and so on? It also has a lot to do with whether... Whether the trunk is independent from the neck, whether the neck can actually swing like that, is loose so that the trunk can lift itself. Of course, all of this is somehow connected, but maybe you could explain that again, because I also found it very logical and impressive that when there is so much compensation and everything kind of tightens up, then it really can't be any other way than for the horse to lose its balance a bit or even tip forward and down. And the neck can't really be loose and so on, because you just mentioned how the neck is actually supposed to be. It should be able to hang freely. So maybe you could explain that a bit more.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:38:22-00:41:10]
So what was originally conceived in the tour for the horse is that the horse stands on its four feet with 70% of the trunk weight carried by the forelegs. And that's where the horse's trunk sits stably. And then there's the neck and it can move and it can do so independently. From the trunk, and that's how the horse, with its head hanging down, this is why there are air sacs and such for pressure equalization, can stand and graze for 16 hours a day on a pasture or a step. And it can turn its neck three-dimensionally like a snake and use it and touch itself anywhere it wants to be touched with it. And then use its nose and lips as a substitute for hands. And that is what... nature actually intended, and not that the neck should serve as a balancing pole, but rather that the horse's balance should lie between its shoulders. That means the trunk should be balanced between its forelimbs and not be dependent. On the head-neck position, if it happens that, so to speak, the horse lowers its head deeply and has to step forward to reach the ground, or even worse, has to let its trunk sag between its forelegs in order to reach the ground, then we are clearly in the realm of a strong and obvious but harmless condensation. That means if you observe your horse, and if it has to stand in a pronounced stepping position to eat hay or grass in order to reach the ground, then you can be sure that something is not right. And it's the same when riding. If you ride your horse forward and downward and the horse's head is supposed to come a bit lower, and then you get the feeling that the trunk drops forward and the horse is constantly trying to find its balance forward, then that's because it isn't being supported by the thorax. Because the trunk between its shoulders doesn't stay up when the head goes lower. And of course, you might say, I'll just make it easy and simply ride with the head turned. But by doing that, you actually reinforce this compensation. The horse then mainly stabilizes itself through the extensor chain, meaning this upper muscle fascia chain, upper neck, back, and the hindquarter muscles, using those to stabilize and tense up. And that's how this tense back musculature develops. Then you can imagine when it's so tight, the horse is even less able to stretch its neck. forward and lengthen it. And of course, even in collection, it's not working over the back. To reach forward to the bit, that means one problem leads to another. But a horse that is carried thoracically, is in balance, and doesn't need its upper fascial chain for stabilization, can move effortlessly, with its head very low, very high, turned all the way to the left, or all the way to the right. All the way to the right. All of that is easily possible for this horse. And if that's not easily possible, then it's precisely because there is too little thoracic carriage, too little activity from the trunk supporter, and too much tension in the muscles of the neck.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:41:10-00:42:05]
Okay, so if I happen to notice this right now in my own horse, which, as we have already learned, is actually the case with a very large number of horses, regardless of their specific breed, their discipline, or even whether it is actually a highly trained sport horse, it really can happen just about anywhere at any time. This compensation, as we've just learned, for whatever reasons. If I now say, okay, yes, I want to change that, maybe we can go into it a little bit more. Of course, we can't explain everything in full detail right now. As I said, you'll also learn that in our course, so definitely check it out. There you'll really get a step-by-step guide on how you can get started. It also covers all the anatomy again. And so on. Everything is described so that you can really understand it from the ground up. But when I'm writing now, and I also want to continue with my regular training somehow, how can you combine that? How can you incorporate that into your daily routine? How can you You imagine that. What does biotensigral training look like in the everyday lives of very different horse people?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:42:05-00:45:32]
Well, it really varies a lot. It depends on how much the horse is already in a dysfunctional state, how severe the compensation is. If the horse is experiencing severe pressure pain in the saddle area and the withers, it obviously makes no sense to put a saddle on it while moving. So that problem needs to be solved first. That would mean that for a while, you might just work the horse from the ground. Because trying to train against pain means you can't really train. Instead, you first have to do something about this chronic pain. And then you incorporate the halt. For some, if the issues aren't that severe, it might be enough to just do this a little bit before riding two or three times a week. Or even better, to incorporate this basic idea into your riding as well. And also this idea of three-dimensionality. That means it goes, you should be able and allowed to use your body in every direction and not think too much in terms of shapes and molds. Like the nose has to be here and one front leg has to be there and it has to be this way and that has to be that way. But rather think in terms of harmonious movement sequences and in how I can help the horse to change its entire movement potential again to make it usable. It's similar to yoga. When at first, before you even start yoga, you can't even tie your shoes while standing. And then with more and more flexibility and dynamic stability, you simply manage to perform movements better again. Then, of course, you are also better protected against injuries because your body is simply much more resilient. That means being able to handle much more, even strange or unfamiliar movement patterns, like jumping onto a box in the paddock, stepping into a hole, a playful situation, or even falling, whatever it may be, a fit, flexible body can simply handle all that much better without getting hurt than a totally stiff body that's always compensating and just sitting around. That's the typical human example. A man in his 40s decides after 20 years to go play soccer with his buddies again. The warm-up routine is the heated seat in the car. And then what happens? Torn cruciate ligament. That's what happens to people. Or when after 10 years, you decide to go skiing again. And you can be pretty sure that it will be accompanied by minor or at least less severe injuries. And it's exactly the same with horses. Injuries to the suspensory ligament, tendon injuries, these don't happen because of bad luck, but just like with us, due to a lack of fitness. And with horses, it's exactly the same. And you can really focus much more on prevention. And that also means when riding, not trying to force the horse into a mold all the time, from morning till night, a billion traversals to the left and to the right, and trying over and over until it eventually gets better, but rather thinking much more along the lines of, okay, the traversal to the left doesn't work as well as the one to the right. What could be the reason for that? Where is there a lack of mobility? Where might I need to help my horse so that it can move better? Precisely in all three dimensions and not just in one or two. So in other words, extension and flexion or lateral flexion, bending and positioning, nose up. up, nose down, but also including rotations. That is truly the concept of three-dimensionality. If you just take some time to think this through for yourself and then incorporate it a bit more into your training and maybe also embrace the idea of fixing less and allowing more, allowing movements instead of just limiting them. Because what sometimes happens in riding is that we don't allow anything at all, but instead have a fixed idea of how a horse should move and try to achieve that through a lot of repetition. And that limits, fixes, compresses. Instead of opening, loosening, lightness, harmony.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:45:32-00:46:28]
Yes, very nicely explained. Actually, it's a bit like you once said to me, it's a bit like dancing with the horse. That's always such a worn out example or a bit of a cliche. But in the end, that's really what it is. You can imagine it if we take the positive example. Yes, just like you said earlier with yoga, your deep muscles are active, you're strengthened, yet still flexible. That means that it gives you an enormous range of movement so you can react to things, to how you move. And it's the same with the horse. You can imagine once you've explained it to the horse and established it. And as your horse's dedicated personal trainer, you can then, while you are out riding, maybe provide a subtle reminder to your horse of it with just a light physical touch. Like stretch out a bit or become bigger or something like that, transferring that into riding. Because I think for listeners who aren't familiar with tensegrity training yet or haven't seen it before, it might be a bit hard to imagine how you would transfer that into riding. But maybe this way it's easier to picture.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:46:29-00:46:39]
It's maybe not really a new... new writing style or anything like that, but more of a fundamental change in mindset. And that's what's needed. We have writing styles. And that alone actually says enough.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:46:39-00:46:41]
Okay. Explain more precisely what you mean by that.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:46:42-00:46:48]
Well, in every style, there are things you're allowed to do and things you're not allowed to do. But that doesn't fit at all with bodies.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:46:49-00:46:51]
Actually, it's always about being free and all directions.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:46:52-00:47:54]
Exactly. And then if I can move freely in all directions during my training, if I don't think so much in terms of forms, whether it's Western form, pleasure form, reining form, dressage form, eventing form, or name it as you want. If I don't think in these forms and don't try to achieve this form over and over again through endless repetitions, but instead in my daily training, I just focus on making my body as fit as possible, then I can achieve whatever form I want, dressage form, jumping form, whatever, with ease. And the idea we sometimes have in horse training is that we practice, practice, practice, always doing the same thing. Or for example, I had an Icelandic horse here that was broken and came in for repairs. And then I said, okay, this Icelandic horse is tense and overactive, constantly racing. Now we need to bring him down and get him to relax. He needs to slow down, accept movement and not be so frantic despite the owner's concern. Yes, but what if I go to the oval track now and then he's so slow? And then I said, look, Usain Bolt, he's the fastest man in the world. But do you think when he's shopping, he also runs like crazy through the supermarket? Yes.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:47:54-00:47:55]
Great example.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:47:55-00:48:34]
It's just you have to. That's often the fear. Also with show jumpers, for example. when they let the horse lower its head. Yes, but how do I get him back up again for the course? It's just not the case that you fix movements. You don't have to fix and cement movements so that the horse can perform them when it matters. Instead, we need to develop movement competence. And then the show jumper can ride their horse in a relaxed, calm, rounded and stretched way without draw reins in the warm-up arena. And then in the course, the horse can also raise its head again. And he can have the horse in the form he needs for the course without the horse being harmed because the horse is capable of it since it has the maximum range of motion and can use its body that way.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:48:34-00:49:02]
I think that's a great example also because people always talk about dressage riding and what are the goals, relaxation, moving over the back and so on. And actually, as you said, it's simply about being able to move freely without any blockages. And then it basically happens on its own. And then it doesn't matter what discipline I ride, whether it's a Western discipline, whether I'm out trail riding, no matter what I do, I always want a relaxed, stretched or with the top line arched, a horse that moves loosely through its body.

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:49:02-00:49:10]
Exactly. But that doesn't come about through fixation. Rather, it comes from movement competence. And I think that's the main shift in thinking that needs to happen.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:49:11-00:49:31]
Yes, great. Yes, I would say that's actually a perfect closing statement right here. Maybe to summarize briefly again, because I can imagine that many who are listening now and are excited by this idea and want to try it themselves are now wondering, okay, how do I actually get started? How do I begin? What would you tell them? What are the first steps? How can they start working in the right way? Direction with their horse?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:49:31-00:50:43]
So first of all, you have to inform yourself because if you don't know what it's about, it simply won't work. And by now, there is actually quite a bit of information out there. Now, we're going to have our View Horse online course where we've done our best to present the basics as clearly and in as small steps as possible. Then, of course, there's the host and security page with an advanced online course. There are also Instagram accounts, including my horse body and function Instagram account, which shares information, as well as many other related accounts. So there's a lot opening up if you just start searching a little bit. But what's important to me is it is not it's not some new religion that people are just supposed to follow blindly. It's about understanding. And that's the most important thing. So please always keep thinking for yourself. Try to understand things on your own. Apply them yourself and find your own path. It should not. And this is very important to me. Be a new religion, nor should it be a new writing style. And it shouldn't be a new groundwork method either. It should simply convey knowledge and ideas, how I can enrich my daily training with my horse, how I might be able to make a mindset shift, how I might be able to create more ease and more harmony in my relationship with my horse. That is personally very important to me.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:50:44-00:51:20]
Great. Thank you very much. Yes. And then perhaps in conclusion, there's something else I'd like to say, which I always find important. At first, I think it always seems like a very complex topic. You have to understand quite a bit and acquire some knowledge, a few terms and so on. And then don't start thinking, oh, God, this is all way too complex. complicated for me and I'll never be able to do it or anything like that. But actually, Veronica, once you're into it, you can very quickly start implementing things yourself. And I think you always say as well that there's really not much you can do wrong. So you can just get started and try things out. Once you've taken a look at it, watch the online course, just try it out with your horse and observe, right?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:51:20-00:52:08]
Absolutely. Often many people are hesitant to try it and don't trust themselves to do it. And they would rather have someone else do it, but they ride their horse all the time. Honestly, you can do a lot more wrong by riding your horse all the time than by simply trying to communicate with your horse from the ground. And that's actually the essential point. That means feel free, try. And I so often get messages from people who have only attended one of my courses as a spectator or maybe just took or watched the online course or simply watched what's on Instagram. And they say, wow, everything has changed. It's so great. Simply because they just tried it and just did it. And furthermore, we also try to make sure that the entire program we have put together here is carefully designed so that absolutely nothing can go wrong. So we really feel encouraged to invite you to just give it a try and see for yourself.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:52:09-00:52:33]
Great. Thank you very much, Veronica, for your time. I think we've all gained a very good comprehensive insight into tensegrity training. And of course, I hope that those of you listening right now might feel inspired to get involved and just give it a try. And then it's really a lot of fun. I can say that from my own experience. So Veronica, thank you again for your time and all the best to you. Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with the listeners?

[SPEAKER 5]
[00:52:33-00:52:47]
Yes. So thank you very much for this platform. For me, it's primarily about improving the lives of horses through sharing knowledge. That is actually the most important thing to me. And that's why I also want to thank WeHos for allowing me to do this here in this way.

[SPEAKER 4]
[00:52:47-00:52:56]
Oh, it's our pleasure. Yes, we're always happy about it too. It's fun working with you. So have fun trying things out, everyone, and see you next time. Bye, Veronica. Bye.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:57-00:53:31]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at wehorse underscore USA and check out our free seven day trial on wehorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.