Betsy Vonda: Emotional & Physical Trauma in Horses and the Power of Consent

*** This transcript was created by AI and has not been proofread ***

[SPEAKER 2]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from wehorse, the online riding academy. My name is Danielle Kroll, and I’m your host. On this week’s episode, we’re talking with Betsy Vonda, an equine postural performance and behavioral consultant and trainer. Although raised with horses her entire life, Betsy went on to pursue a career as a paramedic. However, through her education and work experiences, she began to see the parallels between troubled people and troubled horses. She learned that people’s actions and behaviors can be heavily influenced by their past experiences, living conditions, and nutrition, and it became quite clear that horses are also influenced by the same. Betsy believes that by better understanding the factors that influence our horses behavior, we have endless opportunities to overcome challenges and set our horses up for a balanced and successful life. I truly believe the universe connected with me with Betsy for a reason, which I’ll dive into momentarily, but I’m really excited to introduce you to her. So get ready to take notes and let’s dive in. Betsy, I am so excited to welcome you to the We Horse podcast. And for those listening, we have been talking now for like 15 minutes. And the two of us are just like, oh my gosh, we have to hit record.

[SPEAKER 1]
We need to stop. We need to record.

[SPEAKER 2]
We’re so excited to talk about this. And I’m so glad you’re here. So one of the things that I wanted to mention before we also get started is I want to give people a little bit of a background about this like crazy divine intervention about how I met you. So one of my horses, I got her at the age of four, and we started this cycle within like six months of aggressive behavior, complete downward spiral of her movement and I mean a whole slew of things that went on for four years and I tried everything. And it got to the point where at the age of eight, I thought, you know what, I think I’m going to have to retire this horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
I’m getting goosebumps.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. Yeah. It was, I mean, I could, I could spend the whole episode talking about this. And, um, so I applied for a book project, um, with Nikki Porter, who was also on this podcast, if anybody wants to go back and listen to Nikki’s episode. And Betsy also was selected for that book project. That’s how the two of us met. It was complete coincidence. Um, I started talking about my horse and Betsy messaged me and was like, Hey, I think we should talk. Yeah, we, we need to chat. And so I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. Betsy lives in Ontario, Canada. Um, so there was no way of us like running into each other, having the same, you know, immediate social circle, anything like that. She says to me, you should try osteopath or osteopathy with your horse. And unfortunately, at the time, there was no one in Nova Scotia that was able to do it. Coincidentally, Betsy’s osteopath a few weeks later moved from Ontario. to Nova Scotia and was able to treat my horse. There’s just been so many coincidental things since then. And I’m so excited to talk about the topics that we’re talking about. And yeah, I just wanted to give a little background on that.

[SPEAKER 1]
Oh, yeah, I have such huge goosebumps. So like, piece of Danielle sent me a photo or I think I saw a photo and Soda had a really rotated pelvis like one of the most significantly rotated pelvis as I think I had ever saw or ever seen. And I was like, we can change this like I’ve because I’ve watched and it’s it’s Dr. Dr. Kate like shadows Dr. Kate. She, I’d worked with her for like three years and she was like showing me a lot of things. I just seen so much change with her that I was like, wow, like, no, there is something we can do. And then exactly, she moved out there and I was like, oh my God, Kate is there and she is phenomenal. And she was able to help Soda because my mare had similar, just not as bad. And it was just, I literally just had goosebumps through all of that because it was such a profound change and at eight, right? And I think this is unfortunate, the story of so many horses these days that get stuck in, they either have one incident or just something happened. And then like, we’re going to talk about this whole spiral happens and they can’t bring themselves out of it. And a lot of conventional, you know, treatment or therapies that a vet may offer are not going to fix something, or even some, you know, massage therapist, it’s just not in the skill set. So having the whole like a whole team and having the Ozpath was such a key like, oh my god, I just got goosebumps. But yeah, this is like, and this is my life to how like me to even how I met Nikki. Like that whole path of how we connected and Nadine and that was a whole, I can tell you like an eight long history of like just things that happened. And then we showed up in the same room together at one point, well virtually. And I was like, oh my God, hey, and then it would just, it all connected. And yeah, it’s totally.

[SPEAKER 2]
I love all that.

[SPEAKER 1]
I digress. I digress.

[SPEAKER 2]
So let’s go back to the beginning. Tell us about how you got into horses and what were your first few years like as an equestrian?

[SPEAKER 1]
For sure. So I’m very fortunate to grow up with a horse crazy mother who made it possible for us to have horses at home from the age of five. So we I still like one of my first memories. And my sister’s actually here right now. And it was our horse bar. And I remember like hugging his front leg. Like I remember being so small but walking up, and he was probably in hindsight only like two at the time, but I remember going up and like hugging his front leg. So my mom had got bar when we were really young and we had ponies. And then we ended up moving to a small hobby firm when I was in kindergarten, kindergarten grade one. So we had horses at home since I was, yeah, four or five years old. And I was very fortunate to grow up with kind of that freedom. So my mom and dad were not together at the time, so we would come home and basically just free for all play with our ponies. And we moved to a small town called Lansdowne and my cousins were also there who also rode ponies and we competed. you know, the local club show. So we started, you know, you do everything from showmanship to hunter hack to barrel racing, right? And you did all these fun games. So I grew up primarily in that kind of club atmosphere, competing. And then when we moved, when I was in grade eight, we moved to a more competitive region. And then within that area, I met people who were competing at the provincial level. So I had really just, you know, again, having a single mother, we basically had to make our own horses, like we couldn’t afford, barely could afford lessons. I remember having one lesson when I was a child. So my mom taught me pretty much everything we learned from videos, like, you know, John Lyons videos. And I remember my first Martha Josie VHS. um you know like so we didn’t we didn’t have a lot of coaching opportunities or the finances and we had to basically make our own horses so I was lucky to grow up you know having to learn the hard way in some respects but also um being able to get exposed to some degree of natural horsemanship as well but also living in that environment we would spend a lot of time in the field just watching the horses and I remember now in hindsight we had a mixed herd so we only had you know the one pasture so the geldings and the mares went out together and we would go out and I remember just like watching them and watching them interact and seeing their behaviors and obviously that’s in a domesticated setting but We grew up just doing kind of that, you know, play in the woods, ride your pony bareback with a halter, and then slowly going up through competitive levels, eventually getting into quarter horse, like competing at the quarter horse, Ontario quarter horse level. And that’s when my good horse Sugar Bear, we had bred and raised him and then he really started to excel at bull bending. So I had, you know, shown Hunt Seed and Western Pleasure in the Quarter Horse Circuit, but then when we went to the Provincial Circuit, And I really started to focus on barrel racing and pole bending and the speed events. But I luckily had this background of natural horsemanship and, you know, you know, Western pleasure and horsemanship and showmanship. So I had I wasn’t just, you know, someone who started out barrel racing and wanting to go fast. I had this other somewhat of a developmental lens on, you know, proper carriage and you know, what I knew or thought I knew at the time of proper carriage. And I’d never really experienced lameness was the other thing I will highlight about this. So we, I can still remember there was one time we had a horse get kicked in the front leg. So she had an acute injury and you know, the odd time horses would have abscesses, but I’d never experienced true lameness. Like we never really had behavioral horses. We had a few that had some behaviors, but the way we handled them. it wasn’t a huge issue and we’d never had like subtle lameness until Sugar Bear but I think we’ll, I’ll talk about him a little bit later but I basically grew up in a very self-taught environment. I didn’t have a lot of coaching and so it also has shown up in me though now is where I just constantly pursue education like it’s just who I am and where it kind of led me down my career path as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
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[SPEAKER 1]
right there’s always that teenage with your mother right it’s like okay mom but you know so i learned so much from her and watching her handle so many horses and obviously i wouldn’t be the horse woman i am today without her and without my sister um but yeah i didn’t have like a professional influence it’s true i didn’t have very much of that i had people that i looked up to and i would watch them like a hawk at competitions right to see what they were doing But I didn’t have that formal coaching so exactly it came to just you know I would look into myself to try and figure out what to do better and and yeah Very good point Now what was a turning point or like?

[SPEAKER 2]
Was there a certain experience? That you had that inspired you to pursue behavioral and biomechanical training for horses and in basically what you do now

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, so I did go to school and become a paramedic. So that was, you know, I very young, I knew that I would not do well in an office setting. So I went to and my cousin was actually becoming a paramedic. So I was in and out of college and on the road as a paramedic by 21. And through that, I learned a lot of just pathophysiology, anatomy, you know, I can, I can, I say I can read big words, I can’t always say them. But I had that lens. And then what it brought me into, though, this, this highlights that I then took a break. So Sugar Bear, I brought him to college the first year we competed, he went to Congress, he did very well, he won a lot of big things very young. But when I started to bring him back into soundness, I actually experienced my first head injury.

[SPEAKER 2]
And

[SPEAKER 1]
And then he kind of, you know, did a little bit. And then when I really started to bring him back into competition shape, we did our first two competitions at the beginning of 2018. And then he was he was subtly lame. So and it wasn’t so subtle. It was like, I felt I felt him take a couple odd steps at the first competition. But like, was fine was sound wrote him that week went to the second one. And then when we went back to see him close, give him a day off. he was lame like he was he was head bobbing lame and we went through the whole workup with the vets and you know they x-rayed and they flexed and they’re like well he may have a stone bruise and i’m like well that’s odd there’s not that many stones around but okay has a stone bruise and then we kind of went down this journey with him over the course of the year trying to get him sound but it was like you know we ended up finding heart heart arthritis we injected that you know we were i was doing the hand walking i was doing all the things but he was still quite behavioral and I had raised this horse so he’s now 17 going 18 and I remember we’re at this barn and my husband had bought a new horse and they were they were together but then in the barn they were a few stalls apart and I remember showing up and he was in a full body sweat and the other people there were like he’s trying to jump out of the stall like I don’t know what to tell you like he’s just distraught and And I’m like, this is so strange. Like, what is happening? He’s never had this type of separation anxiety before. And then I ended up meeting Christine Chambers, who has a pulsed electromagnetic field therapy machine at a convention. I was like, oh, I’d really love for you to come out and see if you can help him. And he went from that kind of agitated, you know, dancing in the aisle, you know, I was having to hold him, to by the end of her session, he was like, standing, sleeping.

[SPEAKER 2]
I dropped the lead rope, walked away.

[SPEAKER 1]
And I was like, OK. Clearly, there’s something here, like, obviously, machine has made him feel better. He’s feeling better. He’s not as behavioral. And I think that was one of the first things that started to kind of tick in my mind that maybe the pain is related to the behavior. And when I met Kate, so I actually, Amanda was another osteopath and then she directed me to Kate and then working with Kate and learning about osteopathy is what really helped me also bring it full circle where I was like, she started to just expand my lens of what could be going on in a horse’s body. So I had no idea what fascia was. Um, I had, I was completely like, I had no idea. I never learned about it in school. And then in hindsight, I’m like, how do we not know about fascia? Like, but again, fascia is a pretty new thing that people are even acknowledging in the medical world. And so when I started to learn about fascia and how when you have a trauma and my own personal experience with, I was actually in a car accident and then started getting head injuries. And when I went to an osteopath finally, cause I was suffering from post concussion. And he, he realized that I had a seatbelt restriction in my chest. So I had been in an accident and I, you know, gone into my seatbelt and I didn’t realize that I likely wasn’t breathing for the past two years. So when he was He was working in my chest. And I remember I was so sick with my post concussion that he asked me if I’d been in a car accident. And I was like, Nope, nope, I played rugby. Like I completely I was so sick. I completely forgot I was in a car accident. And he’s like, well, it really feels like you have a seatbelt injury feel I feel this major restriction in your chest. And I had been seeing chiropractors who were treating, you know, the lesions on my spine from my chest being pulled into my ribs getting pulled off is how they explained it to me. And I had been trying to do strength training and physio and I was trying to strengthen my back, but it just wasn’t working. And I’m like, I had a bodybuilding background, I knew how to train back. I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense until I went to this osteo. And he was like, well, basically, what’s happening is your fascia, because of this injury has basically locked down and like seize and is a way of protecting your chest. So when he got it to release, I remember my thumbs rolling open. So I was laying on the table. And I remember this because my thumbs were up. And when he released it was like my chest rolled open. And then he was like, take a breath. And I took a breath. And I was like, so you’re telling me I haven’t been breathing for two years. That’s what I said to him. Because I all of a sudden could feel this chest expansion. But when you’re injured, and there’s so much going on, and that becomes your new baseline, you don’t even realize that you don’t have full expansion. And then he didn’t have to explain to me, well, if my chest was not moving, I have reduced heart, heart and lung function. Because in order for your lungs to fill, they have to expand in order for your, your heart to fill with blood, it has to expand. So if you have restriction, your rib cage, and you can’t breathe, it puts you also into a state of life, fight or flight, because You now can’t breathe. So I didn’t realize.

[SPEAKER 2]
Taking those short, shallow breaths.

[SPEAKER 1]
Short, shallow breaths. And my diaphragm couldn’t move. And so it all started to come full circle. And I was like, oh my God, because I’d been hitting my head on stuff that I’d never hit my head on before. And he’s like, but think about it. Like if you have decreased, because he also found I had a restriction in my C1. So he’s like, you know, blood flow to your brain probably hasn’t been great. Your lymphatic drainage hasn’t been great. So because I started, it was like I was living in tunnel vision. But again, I didn’t realize I was living in tunnel vision because I was just living in tunnel vision.

[SPEAKER 2]
It was your new normal.

[SPEAKER 1]
It was my new normal. So I would hit my head off stuff and then get sick. And he’s like, this makes no sense. But then it made sense once he freed me up. And I literally went from housebound post concussion symptoms to a Christmas party in three days, I was like, Oh, my God, this is so profound. So when we then started working on horses, and then obviously, being the book nerd I am, I started to dive in, okay, well, what is fascia? Why is it important? Clearly, it’s very important. And then I started learning about horses. And you even think back to Like a full you know as they’re learning to walk and if they’re in a box are they bouncing off the walls are they you know maybe they’re landing in soft straw but you watch these horses, you know learn to walk or you watch a full playing in the field they white. They fall into things, even if a horse slips and falls in the mud, or like my horse has fortunately one time gone down on the ice. And each one of those falls, they make it up, they don’t have any obvious trauma, but they’re a large animal and if they just fell… Is there is there now a fashion restriction? And I think this is what really started. I started going down the hole. And then, you know, now with the work I do, looking back at Sugar Bear, it’s like, oh, my God, he never what we say fully unfolded. So I look back and I have this photo of him as a whole. And he’s standing there with his neck like a giraffe, his little scapula or like up strangling his cervical spine. And he was always a front end kind of, you know, more downhill quarter horse and a lot of his siblings were. So I just wrote it off as like, Oh, that’s just how he is. We can’t change that. Well, in hindsight, it’s like his career ended up being, um, you know, ending for him, what I would say is early because he ended up being diagnosed with navicular. But he still had minimal changes like it still didn’t quite add up, but he clearly was done and you know in hindsight I’m like did he have a degree of nerve impingement? Did he have something but again when we treated him and his pain would go away the behavior would go would go away It would be his normal self. So I’m like okay, there’s clearly something to this. And then through his journey, I found Warwick Schiller and I found, you know, this connection work with horses and working with, you know, mindfulness and being more present and offering them the ability to say no, and that you see their concern. And I then just say, I started having horses arrive to me. So then we had just moved into a new barn and the barn owner was like, oh, well, you should come meet my horse, Pino. And he reached out and bit her in the chest when we walked up, and I was like, oh, okay. And then she was like, yeah, we had him, but no one can ride him right now, and he dragged some staff around, and he’s a big warm blood, and he was just so behavioral. But then as I started to go through his history, I’m like, oh, well, he’s had lameness issues. He was in a situation where he was not offered any type of choice, so he basically stuck his horsey middle finger up at people and would rub them off on walls, throw them into jumps, or just refuse to move, no matter what you did to this horse. And he was one, and then it’s just, it was like all these horses that kept arriving and then kept adding, I’d say, like the piece to the puzzle. to where i am now and i got into the point where i say i can’t out connect pain so a little horse arrived to me who ended up getting diagnosed with kissing spine but it was because you know i’d done some connection work with him we got into this point where it’s like okay like he’s he’s better but he’s still not okay he still feels very instinctual and then um that’s actually around the time i found celeste and he was diagnosed with kissing spine and once we did the balance removing method work and then I remember because the big red flag for me was like I picked up a saddle pad and like when we were first and he was still undiagnosed and he just walked away like he left like he was like, I want nothing to do with that. And I was like, okay, that’s interesting. And then you know, palpate his back. He’s got back pain. I’m like, okay, it’s making sense. And then when you know, we’d done the balance removing method, we broke his pain cycle, he was feeling better. I just picked up a pad. He just stood there with like, okay. And I just put it on his back, picked up the saddle, zero concern, put it on him. And he just stood there looking at me like all happy. And I was like, Oh, okay. So there are still layers of pain. And when we resolve that pain, truly resolve that pain, the behaviors go away. And I was like, Oh, so it made me really like I’ve just had so many horses. that, you know, come to me for behavior. And then we end up finding so many different things that are actually the root cause of that, that it’s like, you can’t separate them now. And, you know, there, it’s just been, it’s been literally life changing work, because it’s made me dive more into the human nervous system as well. And, you know, now being a new parent, like I have a seventh month, seven month old, and diving into, you know, I get bombarded with sleep training and all these different things. And I’m seeing how layers of nervous system development, and even, you know, shut down and kids and how we how we can actually parent in a way to that builds a healthy nervous system in our children is very aligned with how we can do it in horses. So It’s been yeah, it’s been quite the journey but it was really sugar bear and then every horse since him that has just Continued to bring me down this path and and then all the way to meeting Celeste who’s my mentor and I know she’s been on here as well and it’s just been yeah, it’s been quite quite the journey, but I’m so grateful for every bit of it and I think like when we look at the behavioral aspect of it, I feel like there is an

[SPEAKER 2]
an issue within the equestrian industry. It doesn’t matter what discipline.

[SPEAKER 1]
You can see my face right now.

[SPEAKER 2]
It doesn’t matter what discipline. There is such a Oh, they’re just like that or a You know, I even see it sometimes people Laugh it off. Oh my gosh, that horse is throwing this person off. Oh my gosh, this horse is whatever and it’s like ha ha ha Yeah, I don’t know.

[SPEAKER 1]
They need more training put them to work.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, and I don’t know if I I I know for me, um, as somebody that, you know, is, uh, you know, within the hunter jumper realm, um, a lot of things that I follow online, it does seem like a lot of people make it a joke, um, that, you know, you’re getting on these like quote unquote, like dragons and you’ve got to put all this gear on and, and things like that. And, and when I look at my experience with my mare soda, And when I got her, she was the quietest, sweetest horse. She would do anything for you. You could throw anybody on her back. She was four and she knew her job. And within like six months, I had a fire-breathing dragon. And I just kept saying for the next four years after that, she’s not like this. She wasn’t like this. This isn’t who this horse is. And nobody would believe me. Nobody would take me seriously. And everybody kept saying, Things like, it’s between her ears. It’s, you know, you just have to realize that you’re dealing with the horse that you have now, not the horse you used to have and things like that. And I almost started, but I started to take it in a way that it was me. It was, I was making excuses that, you know, I was living in the past, you know, and then like things like that. But I just kept thinking, but this isn’t like, It’s not who she is. There’s something here that this is not, this, like this horse is not.

[SPEAKER 1]
This, like this is not her.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, like I’m looking at it and I’m thinking back to everything that I went through with her. And I would just look at her and I’d think, my God, you look miserable. You look so unhappy. Are you actually this angry? Like you have such a wonderful life. Why are you so angry? Yeah and i would get so frustrated about it and burnt out essentially at the end of the day and that was when you know starting to to. Meet you and me doctor kate who literally put the pieces of soda back together and started to go down these paths of this work and realizing. The behavioral that we brush off is so incredibly important.

[SPEAKER 1]
So important. So important. And that’s what like, I, it, it breaks my heart every time I see. And I literally commented on a post this morning because you know, Facebook likes to show me things that trigger me, of course, um, where it was, you know, an ad for Spartan, AKA Satan pony. And in the ad, it said, you know, in the just just this year has now hates blankets, wants to attack anything that’s under five feet, is newly aggressive in the paddock. And I’m like, OK, so we’ve got this little pony and I feel like it happens to ponies even quicker than it does to horses where they just get labeled as miserable when she clearly this person clearly states in the ad that this used to be a lovely, amazing lesson pony. And now for some reason, is the devil. is selling him it is selling him getting rid of him you know but she’s being honest and all the people in the comments were praising this person for being honest in her ad at least she’s being honest good for you that honesty and i’m like can we please just talk about the red flags that this little pony is trying to scream at you that something is wrong and you’re instead labeling him as the devil and trying to sweep him to the curb or to the curb and get rid of him and it just broke my heart because I’m like Especially the red flag, he doesn’t want blankets anymore. It’s like, okay, well, is that because he has ulcers? Is that because he has nerve pain in his shoulders? Is that because he’s now so defensive? Because I have seen it time and time again where I get horses for rehab and they either want to not have anything to do with a herd when we integrate them, Or they are aggressive. They are intentionally aggressive. And I think it’s because they’re saying, I’m going to get you before you get me. And they’re clearly living in fight. And they’re living in, they’re not in social engagement, they’re in fight or flight. And they are either fighting away from the herd, which, you know, is offering no threat, or they are picking fights. And they’re just fighting because they’re in fight mode. And it’s like, when you help them feel better, social engagement turns on, you can integrate these forces, and they join the herd. So when you, when I see these flags in, in, in, you know, in ads, or even in history that, you know, they were really good to herd, now they’re aggressive, or now they run the fence. And I’m like, okay, well, that is a sign that they’re not okay. Because horses are meant to live in herds, right? They’re meant to socially engage. So it just breaks my heart, because that’s, I think it’s, it happens all the time. And it’s so I say it’s triggering to me and it gives me like the, ah, because I know that it’s likely something else, right? And when you see it’s so culturally acceptable to say this horse is being naughty, it needs more work. This horse is just, you know, a redheaded chestnut mare. Well, I own a redheaded chestnut mare and she is just the most incredibly sensitive, clear-cut communicator I have ever met. And when you frame it like that, that she is just a very good communicator to what she’s experiencing, it’s completely different and that’s why I also love like Dr. Audrey Duclos in her horse first podcast because the second podcast she ever did with it is not normal when it is not normal when your horse is cinchy it is not normal when they you know pack shavings at the back of their stall it’s not normal if your horse never lays down to sleep it’s not normal if they feel so grossly different you know right to left or their contact is like significantly different right to left. Like that’s not normal. This is not normal. And we need to stop dismissing it as such, because it does a disservice to the horse. And I think that again, it’s like culturally, and I have this conversation with owners all the time, because they’re like, well, why didn’t anyone, you know, bring this up? Or why didn’t anyone see it as a problem? And like, and like your story, I just knew in my gut, this wasn’t this horse, this wasn’t it, but everyone around me, and I don’t think they’re intentionally gaslighting you. I think it’s that sometimes they just don’t know and culturally their teacher’s teacher told them that’s just how they are, told them that’s just how they are. So when you grow up in a culture where everyone just says this is normal, this is normal, this is normal, how do you know another way until you see another way? And I think that’s what’s so important about the podcast and like it literally, well and Facebook and the community, communities that are being built and like especially like with our master class there’s so many times that people say finally a safe judgmental free community where we can actually talk or people will say like i found my people because we’re a group of people who are like yeah no that’s not normal like it’s not normal that your horse does that where you know everyone in their life even to the highest levels the highest levels of dressage or eventing or you know western competing where behaviors being, you know, dismissed, but then they come and they’re like, Oh, my God, but I see it. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And that’s the other thing is, I think that the more that people actually listen, but then also the empathetic, you know, trauma informed layer of me goes, but they’ve also probably experienced some type of dismissal when they were a child or growing up where they felt a certain way. And they were not they were told, you know, don’t cry, I’ll give you something to cry about. What are we doing with our horses? Don’t buck or I’ll give you something to buck about or don’t bite or I’ll give you something to bite about. Like there’s also those layers of did these people potentially grow up in households or have life experiences that also have them not able to be empathetic for the horse or to think, well, this is how I’ve, I’ve gone in, you know, gone through my life. It’s normal for me. So is it normal for my horse? So when people also don’t want to see or think it’s normal, I go, okay, but what also has happened to them or what have been their experiences that they’re also not in a place to see this for what it is or to have empathy. Or, you know, maybe they were in a household where their parents kind of lived vicariously through them. And they, cause some people really struggle with competing and not riding, right. Cause they’re so goal oriented and they feel like if I’m not competing and I’m not winning, I’m nothing or why why do i even have this course and it’s like but if you really sit and look with i really sit with it it’s like well what is that actually saying that you are not valuable unless you’re winning competitor like you are valuable your relationship with your is valuable and it’s not determined by how many ribbons you win or how many competitions you attend but again you can’t force someone to sit and look at Well, why do why are you so resistant to not riding? Or why are you so resistant to not competing? Or, you know, why do you have it? Like, you can’t force people to think about that stuff. But I always try and like, hold, like I say, like, hold space or like, hold empathy, and always try and think, well, what has happened in this person’s life also that they don’t want to see it this way, or, you know, like, because clearly, any reasonable person, once you’re taught, and you see that this can be from this, How do you not see it right unless you’ve been conditioned throughout your life to not see that way or not think that way or not, you know. acknowledge that I think that’s really important to know, too, is that people are not out here being malicious. You know, they’re not out here intentionally riding lame horses or causing horses pain. Well, some of them will, you know, crushable, but the most people are just, they just don’t know, or they’re not in a place in their life to see it for what it is based on what they’ve already experienced. And I think that’s super important because it definitely like, that’s what I always try and remind myself. when I get triggered is like, but this person just doesn’t know. Like, it’s not that they’re doing this to be malicious or that they don’t care about the horse, because they clearly care. They’re trying to find it a new home, let’s say, that’ll be more accepting. But they just maybe aren’t in a place to see that, oh, there’s actually red flags to this, you know? So I always try and like, if I really am going to comment or say something, I always just try and draw attention to what I’m seeing. I don’t accuse. I always just say, well, you know, these things are this. It could be this. And just leave it at that, right? It’s like, you can lead a horse to water, you can’t make a drink. Well, I can offer education doesn’t mean they need to take it. But I also can’t walk away and not advocate for those horses. And that’s a big piece of where I am in my journey is Like, I can’t not advocate. Like, I can’t not say something. And even to the owners, like, I will have the difficult conversations of, you know, this course really isn’t ready to be written, but this is why. Like, let me lay it out for you, the risk benefits of riding this course. You know, sure, maybe they will continue to get better, but not at the rate that you want to see them get better. Like, if you were just willing to take these couple of steps backwards, we’ll really end up taking 10 steps forward. But if you continue to ride, they either will not make progress or will make minimal progress. And then they may break somewhere else, too. So I always try and lay it out like these are the risks and benefits. You need to make the decision like this is why I would recommend not riding. But, you know, I understand if you’re also not at the place, you just you need to understand that they’re not going to make the progress you’re expecting if you continue to do X, Y, Z. But it’s always I always try and put it in that person’s hands. But I always try and say, like, this is as much information I can give you. to make the decision, because that is also a huge part of my training is informed, like making informed decisions or helping patients make informed decisions. And that means laying out risks and benefits to each and every decision, you know, that they’re going to make. And I think that doesn’t happen a whole lot in the horse world. And I think it doesn’t happen enough in modern medicine either. But that’s a whole other rant. But But I think in the horse world, you know, as an advocate, that’s what I can do for the horse is I can say, you know, this, this and this, this is what I think is going on. And I can advocate for the horse to the owner, but at the end of the day, it’s still up to the owner. But at least I can go to bed at night knowing that I did, you know, everything I could and made, you know, helped Advocate in whatever way I can and I can have peace with that because I think if you don’t you won’t survive And I know like in the paramedic world like you don’t survive if you get heavily personally invested in every patient you see you you have to Have a degree of you know You’ve done the best you can and now you need to close the loop and move on or you won’t survive the job either I think there’s to an aspect of it and I I think about this a lot as well when I look back over my own history as

[SPEAKER 2]
a rider and horse owner. And then I look back and I think like, you know, we’ve all made mistakes. 100%. once we know better, we do better. So it’s like, it’s when we look at everything, um, if we can just help to educate on here’s, here’s some things as to why maybe that’s not, haha, it’s a devil pony. Um, you know, maybe we can help this pony in another way. So once we know better, then we can do better rather than, you know, making it a, um, you know, a joke or whatever else it may be perceived as.

[SPEAKER 1]
And I think, yeah, that’s it’s such a good point. And that’s all I think that we like we can’t do right is like offer that education and the opportunity. And I know personally, like I’m the type of person that once I know better, it causes like cognitive dissonance, I think is is the word where like, if I know something, and then I’m being, you know, tempted, or someone’s trying to get me to do something that’s in opposition to that, I literally can’t do it. It gives me anxiety. It gives me chest pain where I know not everyone has that such an extreme, but I know that’s what happens within me. Once I know that saddle doesn’t fit, I’ve got to burn it and I can’t sell it. I can’t put it back on. I can’t sell it because I can’t consciously give that to another horse. I just can’t because I know the harm it’s causing. I, you know, again, I’ve tried to let them pay for it. Not everyone has that same, well, they, they sometimes will try and justify it away. So it’s also like knowing that not everyone’s in the same place as you either also helps get me through the day.

[SPEAKER 2]
So I want to talk about, um, your experience as a paramedic and you’ve kind of mentioned this a couple of times already, but how do you feel that your experience looking at Survival responses, which we’ll get into, and correct me if I’m wrong in this, it’s the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, and we can kind of go over those definitions. But the survival responses that people have through traumatic events, whether it’s like emotional or physical, and then how that is also relating to the survival responses that we’re seeing in horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, so it’s like obviously being a paramedic is not for everyone. And there’s, you know, it does, we say, like, it takes a certain type of person to do it, because you are going to see people in these varying different types of responses and that like once you see someone and like I’ve seen and like they prepare they try and prepare you for it the best they can in school right so like I’ve been told like there there will be times where you will have a patient who has had a severe head injury so if you think about you know just for rough anatomy we’ve got our main brain when you think about our brain there’s the brain and then there’s the brain stem Well, most of our actual surviving comes from our brainstem. And when our, our cortex, so the main part that we think of as the brain is compromised, then we go into fight or flight. And, and usually those things are combined too. So they tell you like, you’re likely going to meet patients who have had head injuries, who will be in this state.

[SPEAKER 2]
And just to clarify too, we can also go into fight or flight without having a head injury. We just have that innate reaction in us as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
You have that innate reaction, yes. But when you really truly see it, so I still remember, and I won’t go into too many details, about someone who was hit by a large object, a vehicle, this person was conscious. And when I got to them, they were fighting with firefighters, and who were trying to obviously provide assistance. But this person, I just remember it so clearly, because I went up and I said, I was repeating to this person, like, this has happened to you, like, this has happened to you. And this person is looking right through me. So they’re conscious, but they are in like, full blown fight or flight. And they are not so they don’t hear what you’re saying and they can’t comprehend like it’s literally not possible for them to comprehend and they’re in this state of true fight or flight and it’s almost like they’re blind like obviously they’re seeing your eyes are open. but they’re blind. They can’t hear they can’t process what you’re saying. And they’re just fighting in order to flight. And when you experience that, you know, and I’ve experienced it more than once. And then you meet horses, and you see this come up in horses, then you can hold space for it and not be like that horse is not being bad. That horse is not being nasty. They’re literally in their survival instincts trying to survive whatever situation they are in, or we have unfortunately put them in. And it’s also it aligns with to like when I meet patients who are in chronic pain, like I’ve met and picked up many patients who are in chronic pain, and they are irritable, and they’re short with you, and they will potentially be very rude or yell or, but then when you know that it’s like, okay, but it’s because they’re in pain. You can you can hold empathy for that and know that like it’s not directed at you as a human being as a person. It’s at the uniform. It’s at the situation. And being a paramedic, like my, my education is very much in the nervous system, do we go super deep into, you know, the the emotional responses, not so much that was one thing I was actually disappointed with with my program was, I thought we would get more training and like, like, emergency psychology, where we had a psych like a psychology course. but it wasn’t as applicable like that was the one thing that I wish my program would have covered more was like us dealing with literally like I did not expect the amount of mental health I was going to deal with right on the road and it definitely grew in the time I went to school a long time ago. But that was the one thing I was almost disappointed because I wanted to better understand what is going on with the brain and the nervous system and like we get an education enough to understand, you know, if someone goes into shock, they may pass out. Well, what’s actually happening? They’re actually having potentially a vasovagal episode. And like we would know, and it was very common knowledge that if you go to someone who’s passed out, they probably had a vasovagal is what we call it. So they’ve had some type of stimulation of their vagus nerve that has caused a drop in blood pressure and heart rate. and cause them to pass out. Usually by the time we get there, they’d be conscious, they’d be alert, they’d be talking. And when you read it better in the literature, they often say, you know, it’s not always a super obvious cause, or it is, it is someone who maybe saw blood, who’s not used to seeing blood, or they saw a needle, or, you know, they’ve just been in a car accident. And they’re finally like, maybe they’ve just got out of the car. And then they, you know, people are shocked, we’d say, and they pass out. And, you know, they all blood drains from their face, or someone who is, you know, straining too hard in the toilet can also stimulate the vagus nerve and cause themselves to pass out. So, you know, I was very much aware that this was, you know, something that could happen, but it wasn’t until I really started diving into polyvagal theory and learning later on that I’m like, oh, wait a minute, that’s actually a survival response. And, you know, it can happen to people. And we go, well, you know, from a paramedic point of view, well, okay, you’re not in a heart arrhythmia, it was temporary, you know, you’re not dying in the moment, like we’ll still take you to the hospital, and this is something you should get investigated. But often, there’s no way to really prevent it, because it’s a nervous system, it’s just something that happens. And I wasn’t really fully educated on, you know, what that means from like a social point of view. And like how, until I really read the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which I’ve mentioned, and Celeste mentions quite a bit is you really start to understand is as a child, your vagus nerve actually plays a huge role in the development of what’s happening to you and about you. And if your needs are being met, it will actually help your nervous system and in turn your vagus nerve develop properly or not develop so, so well. And then with horses, so where this comes across into horses is you meet horses and we say it’s like a window of tolerance or a threshold. So there’s been a lot of talk of thresholds in the horse world these days and trying to, you know, be aware of them and find them. But what that really means is we’re looking for this, you know, this threshold where all is well and a horse can learn within it. But in some horses that hasn’t really been developed and they’re very instinctual or they’re bred to be very instinctual is also something to be aware of. But, um, Being a medic, it kind of helped. It helps me read these articles and to try and understand and really see what is happening between what there are some things that are very similar between a human and a horse that do happen, but we’re also a predator versus a horse being a prey animal. So I’m just very grateful to the experiences I’ve had, because I’m like, I’ve seen humans, I’ve met horses, or you know, I’ve met people or I’ve experienced this on this side of my, you know, my life. And then I’m also seeing it mirrored in the horse world. And when I’m interacting with owners, right? I’m also I have that experience of I understand this is probably even just the situation some owners have gone through like you, you’re very like, it’s a lot by the time I meet you, right? You’ve had so many experiences. So if I say something and an owner, you know, like snaps to me or something, I’m like, I can hold space for that. Because understand, it’s been very overwhelming and exhausting to continue to go down this path as well. So I think I just really credit like my paramedic background and enabling me to be able to read some of the literature and see how it may align with horses, or especially the anatomy, like understanding the anatomy, and being able to read and understand their nervous system and how it’s different. But then also having these experiences on one side that I can totally see mirrored with the horses on the other. And It I always say it’s like things are always meant to happen. Like I was totally meant to become a paramedic because if I never became a medic, I would not have this lens with horses. Like I’m so grateful for it. And as much as there’s been, you know, I’ve seen a lot of horrible stuff. Because I also learned, you know, how to compartmentalize. I’m fairly young for my cousin, she taught me to always list the three good things, no matter how bad the call was, like the list three good things, because my nervous system, my brain would be more likely to associate the good as much as so much bad happens.

[SPEAKER 2]
So smart.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, because like, just trust me, like I’ve done some horrible calls, like one of the worst calls I’ve ever done with a child. I remember it as one of the best calls because there couldn’t have been a better, like a better response time, a better transport, you know, us getting to hospital, like as much as this awful thing happened, the stars aligned for this child to give them the best, the best chance. So what could be one of the worst calls I’ve ever done. you know, a child being critically injured ended up, you know, it’s stored in my brain as one of the best because everything like we can’t change that that that thing happened to that child, but everything happened to give that child the best chance possible. So it’s like you can learn to actually train your brain to think like that. And then it enables me to survive and like I’m not on the road as much right now. But when I was, it enabled me to do the job and see and survive these horrible things. And it’s like, is there a way that we can help horses feel safe and learn to be able to overcome their things that have happened to them for sure? But it’s definitely been a really a huge piece of me being able to help the horses now and to help the people, being able to help them understand, you know, maybe the vet report better or, you know, the anatomy. And it’s definitely been, yeah, so so critical to where I am in the horse world.

[SPEAKER 2]
I think that’s such a good tip, too, and like to in any aspect. So, like, let’s take it from um, the simplest terms where, um, you know, a lot of times I know for myself as an equestrian, um, let’s say something as simple as you’re riding and you finish a ride or you finish a lesson, you finish a clinic or something like that. And you always think, yeah, but I didn’t get this. Yeah. But that didn’t, you know, and it’s like, we always, our brain always thinks of the worst and we remember the worst. And in those moments, if we can remember, Like you said, three good things.

[SPEAKER 1]
Three good things.

[SPEAKER 2]
Focus on three good things. Yeah. And it’s like, that can just help us to rewire and just remember situations differently so that a week from then, I’m not thinking, oh yeah, on Tuesday, I had that ride that went like this. It’s like, oh yeah, on Tuesday, I had that ride, but this and this and this happened. And it worked out really well.

[SPEAKER 1]
Even though. Exactly.

[SPEAKER 2]
Exactly. Yeah. I think, sorry, go ahead.

[SPEAKER 1]
Well, I was going to say, I would tell my students that. Because in barrel racing, like I’m a barrel racer and pole bender. is like people come out and they’ll often say that they’ll watch their video and be like wow that felt so much worse than it looked and I’m like yeah because you’re you know you’re in that like you’re saying it’s like you if you don’t come out and think about what went well you’re going to remember you’re like you want to zoom in on everything that felt wrong or was wrong or you did wrong and it’s like I would always say to my students come out and you have to list the three things that exactly that went well or felt well or went the way you wanted so that that’s how you remember it because you can see how easy it is to get caught in that negative loop and same thing when we’re rehabbing our horses. Like people are often thinking, you know, it’s going to be linear. And it’s like, well, it is. And it isn’t because we’re changing nervous system states. We’re changing movement patterns. So the horse also wants to revert back. So it’s not also always going to be linear, but you need to focus on also look at this is different. This is different. This is different to also keep you moving in the right direction and not wanting to give up. that you’re not seeing enough change fast enough. But it’s like, but this change and this change, and that’s a big deal.

[SPEAKER 2]
Like, that’s a big deal.

[SPEAKER 1]
Let’s also stay focused on that.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. That brings us beautifully into the next thing I want to discuss, which is about resetting feedback loops. And just before we do that, before we go there, I want to mention one other thing that I had thought of when you were talking about you know, some of the like instinctual reactions that people have and you had mentioned chronic pain. And one of the things that it reminded me of is I used to teach a chair yoga class and one of the people that came without fail twice a week, every single week, he was always there, was a chronic pain specialist, a doctor. And he used to always come to class and he would say, oh, I just had the worst day. You know, everybody’s always so cranky. you know, my patients are always so angry and I said to him once, I was like, why would people be so cranky when they’re there, like you’re there helping them? And he said, he was like, if you were in pain 24 seven, wouldn’t you be a little cranky too? And I remember when he had said that and then thinking, comparing that to again, my horse at the time thinking if she is, in a state of chronic pain, wouldn’t you be a little cranky too? And again, it just brings us back to thinking, like you had said about how it gives you a sense of empathy with the thought process that people may have. And I think that it’s an important part to look at where if if there is a situation, you know, can we look at it from the survival response? Can like, okay, they’re in a flight mode right now. Okay. They’re in a fight mode right now.

[SPEAKER 1]
Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
Like, you know, I think that it’s important for us to look at, um, all the things going on rather than just thinking they’re being so cranky.

[SPEAKER 1]
Absolutely hundred percent and that’s where it’s like especially the change of behavior, right? like you said I can’t emphasize that enough if this was not your horse and all of a sudden you see a change in behavior and Initially, it’ll probably be subtle. And this is what I also say is sometimes horses will You know, sorry, it wasn’t even girthiness.

[SPEAKER 2]
Um, yeah, and I would ask for the canner she would stop we would stop she would dead stop and she would sometimes back I can’t do it and she would start backing up and And I was like, why is she doing this? Why is she doing this? And then it started with girthiness. And I thought she had ulcers and she, I did have the vet come in and the vet did say she had ulcers. Um, but then it snowballed from there.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah. And that’s what I think is that the horses will give us, they’ll be saying, no, I can’t, or they will, you know, usually they stand perfectly quiet at a cross size, but this time you bring your saddle over and they start dancing or they, you know lift their head three inches when you go to put the saddle on where they don’t normally is and that thing you have to also know your horse’s baseline but the horses will they’ll give us all these little subtle cues and then when we ignore them or we don’t acknowledge them which i think is more the problem is that it’s not that people ignore them it’s that they don’t they dismiss it like we’ve talked about or they don’t realize it’s it’s even happening And then the horse gets to the point where they have to yell. And that’s, that’s where, you know, and like, I, again, I’ve met patients like that, where they’re so irritable, and they’re quick to snap at you. It’s similar, because it’s like, they’ve been living and trying to tell you or trying to tell someone about this pain and discomfort this entire time. And now they’re at the point where they have to yell at you, like I view rearing, bucking and bolting as horses yelling. They’re yelling, I can’t and I need to leave. And we never want to see a horse get to the point where they have to yell at a human. That is one of my goals in life. We could teach people enough that they could pick up on these subtle cues, but the horse never gets to the point. And there’s even that benefit from a performance point of view, even if you are just in it to compete, it’s like, your horse is less likely to get injured and have so many vet bills if you fix it when it’s just a little uncomfortable instead of the point where it’s broken. So it’s like, even if people are like, Yeah, well, their horse, they don’t care, you know, maybe they care, don’t care that much. But if you think of it from like, even like a dollar and cents point of view, it’s better to acknowledge early on, then let your horse get to the point where they’re completely utterly broken. And, you know, and it just like, yeah, like, it’s just they’re, they’re not doing this to be jerks. Like they’re trying to tell you things. And we need to listen to them.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, rearing, bucking, and bolting were things that I dealt with for years. And I was always told it was a training issue. It was a training issue. We need to do more training, more training, more training. And it got to the point where instead of rearing, bucking, or bolting at the mounting block, she would lay down. We would literally go to the mounting block, and she would lay down fully tacked up. And that was when I thought, I’m done because Look at this. She has given up and she is literally to the point. Yes where she is This is me being that like Naive person that was thinking. Oh, well, it’s a training issue. It’s a training issue. It’s she’s just like this It’s behavior, you know, whatever and that was when again it goes back to that whole idea where I was so I was crushed I I was so judgmental of myself when I found out of everything that was going on. And, um, and I, and again, it goes back to that idea of once we know better, we do better. Like, and that’s why it’s so important because, and this is all these things that my beloved horse taught me is like, if you’re, you’re, I’ve been yelling at you and you’re not listening. And so now I’m just going to give up.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah. And they shut down.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk about feedback loops. So I’m going to read this quote, and it’s going to be lengthy, and it’s going to be long, and I’m going to do my best to get through it, and then I want to discuss it. So the quote starts with, neuromuscular patterning simply refers to the way that the brain and body talk about movement. Equestrians often discuss a horse’s, quote, way of going. This is in reference to the horse’s habitual patterns of movement, which are based on the physical circumstances such as conformation, discipline, hoof balance or imbalance, injuries, tack fit, etc. When a horse is not in balance, regardless of the reason, they will adopt compensation patterns in order to use their body in the most efficient way possible. There are times when this ability is crucial to survival. For example, a horse who has sustained a hind end injury may adopt a compensation pattern in order to function with limited mobility and allow the injury to heal. However, if the body becomes, quote, stuck in this neuromuscular pattern, even after the injury is healed, that pattern is no longer the most efficient option. In this case, it’s important to reset the feedback loops between the brain and the once injured limb so that a new neuromuscular pattern can be established. That’s a lot. Let’s discuss. Yes.

[SPEAKER 1]
Lots to discuss here.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
And I think like I even go, I’ll go as far to say is now is this will even start before a horse is back. So what I’m seeing now is that often we’re seeing horses who have likely had an injury or something they’ve been compensating for before they’ve ever been put into work. And I have photos where we look and when I go back, I’m like, do you have a full photo? Do you have a yearly photo? And that owner will pull it up. And I have one, I remember this one work from the UK specifically. And she’s standing in the exact same posture. Here she is as a three-month-old bull. Here she is as a seven-month-old with poof and limb dysfunction. And it’s like, and lightness issues. And it’s like, here’s the exact same posture from like, literally her the full. So I think like we, we obviously we read this and we think of like acute injuries happening. But the way I kind of view them now is this horse was likely in a compensation pattern that then led to an injury, like a hind end limb injury, and then we need to reset. But even if we zoom in on this article and go, wait a minute, was the horse even properly neuromuscularly programmed from the beginning to carry the weight of a rider before all of this happened? And that’s where I’m like, when you read this, and you’re like, yes, we definitely need to reset a feedback loop. And there will definitely be injuries that happen like acute random paddock injuries will happen. But even then, I would argue there’s horses who, again, if they become a little bit disconnected or you know living in survival mode, they’re not as aware of their limbs are. So if you’re listening to this and you have a horse who chronically comes in with cuts and nicks of their lower limbs that are maybe not serious but they’re constantly having little minor injuries to their limbs, that to me is actually a red flag. Like if your horse, because horses are survival animals and if your paddock especially, most domesticated paddocks are walked by people intentionally made safe. So then it’s like, well, why is your horse chronically coming in with all these little injuries, it says to me that they’re probably not even functioning in a basic normal movement pattern, they’re not aware of where their legs are in space, their proprioception is not as good as it should be for a horse. So when we look at this, and we think of the way of going, and that like talk about that a lot of the barrel racing world too, because the horse will have a way of turning or like a way of going. And I think a lot of people miss that, like Celeste so eloquently talked about how they don’t have collarbones and are not designed to carry riders. So people are, you know, doing a classic, like how many people start horses on circles and lunging them. Like that’s how horses started. And they’re already not developed. They’re not developed enough to be in a circle. And a lot of people start horses like that. And then they say, Oh, well, you know, they’re a little short and choppy, they have a choppy stride, or, you know, well, that’ll get a little bit better. And like in here, too, they also don’t mention posture at all. So such as confirmation discipline, who founds and balances injuries cockpit, no one mentioned their posture, just like what their basic adoptive posture is. And I think when we look at this, it’s like if, if we’re not setting them up to, to be ridden properly from the get-go or to have the tack fit proper because that’s another huge pet peeve of mine is I see it all the time where people are like you know I have a three-year-old I’m not willing to spend the money to get a saddle properly fitted so can someone just recommend something and I’m like that is probably the most crucial time for you to have a saddle and yes it’s going to be a pain in the butt and it might cost you a lot of money to change saddles but if you’re starting a horse at three can you plan to ride them and you’re not going to do it in a properly fitted saddle, you are not going to have the same horse at 567 to fit if you’ve ridden them in an improper fitting saddle in their most crucial developmental days, right? Because you are going to potentially damage those muscles to the point that they will never be able to properly develop. And I recently saw this about race horses and race saddles that they may be potentially damaging trapezius is beyond repair. And, you know, if we get that, then you think of, oh crap, we’ll think about all these off the track, you know, thoroughbreds who really struggled to develop top lines. Well, it’s like, okay, but is it because they’re potentially already damaged from the get go in their most crucial years? So it’s like, now I’ve started to, you know, even zoom out. Cause I’ve, I’ve started a lot of horses too. And I’ve always tried to set them up for success, right? That’s what I always think of. You’re always trying to set a horse up for success. But when we look at these neuromuscular repatternings, we often talk about them at the point of rehab, where it’s like, okay, the horse has gotten hurt, and now we need to reprogram them. And that’s what, you know, the balance removal method does beautifully. But I’m like, my whole goal of, you know, spreading awareness with this work is that people start to use it before they even get on their horse. Like, I would love a massive shift in the industry where we actually have bodywork on babies, we have hoof x rays we have, because some people will x ray the need to make sure the knees close. Well, why don’t we take a look at the feet and make sure they’re in balance before we ever ask a horse to carry a rider. Why don’t we look at their development and say, okay, are they even developed enough to now be backed? Because I think a lot of what gets assigned as a horse’s way of going is their way of surviving from the get-go. And that will probably not be a super popular opinion, but it does come back to this, you know, people say, well, this horse is just hot. or they’re just more reactive and it’s like well were they ever trained how to find relaxation where they were they trained in a way that was safe where their thresholds were acknowledged and you know respected where they trained in a way that they were properly developed through their thoracic sling to be balanced to add that additional you know support of a rider to keep their spine open like this epidemic of kissing spine And some people will argue, well, it just wasn’t on people’s radar. You know, it’s not a new thing. It probably just wasn’t diagnosed. But I’m like, Okay, but also, are we riding horses more in a way that is potentially developing kissing spine? Are we pushing them too early? Are we not developing them enough? Like, why is it happening at such a high rate in so many different disciplines. But I think when we look at this, the big thing that stands out to me is are is there a healthy biomechanical um correct neuromuscular pattern to begin with to even bring that horse back to if you think about it from injury like is there a way that we can bring this horse from super soundness and that they get an acute injury back to it or are we just kind of always chasing a thread i would like the world to shift to you know, can we actually properly neuromuscularly develop these patterns in horses before we even put a rider on their back? That’s what I read when I see this. So how do we do that? And how do we reset it? Well, first, we have to really look at the horse and see what we’re starting with. Like I said, because now when I look at some horses, I’m seeing stuff that quite possibly has been there since they were a foal. So then you also think, okay, this pattern’s been in here, because if you have to assess how long has this pattern been here, that’s been from a full another 10. Well, that’s that’s a long time of them, you know, functioning in this way. And it has become their norm. So how do we start to reset Well, in some cases, we definitely, I always say we have to make sure we have the mind, because with a lot of these horses, too, what this doesn’t talk about is the mental aspect of being injured, of being vulnerable. And that’s often, like I said, we see that behavior change when there has been an injury. And maybe it’s not an obvious one, but we’ve usually had a change in mindset. So with the horse, we first have to help them feel safe. And this is where I get, again, pretty frustrated and a little bit triggered when I see a lot of people being recommended to use things that restrict the head and neck and horse, especially in kissing spine cases, because you’re taking a horse who has been in a pain pattern, who is likely feeling vulnerable, has definitely displayed fight or flight behavior. That’s usually the diagnosis of kissing spine. And then you’re taking them and you’re trapping them. and you’re trying to get an outline in their posture without addressing it mentally first. And this is what I just wish people would see is like when we have horses and we work with them and we work with them in a way that we help them feel safe, they usually drop into that posture on their own. Because it’s a vulnerability, bringing your head down to open your back is a vulnerable posture. And if you try and force that, then we’re doing it intention and you’re not actually creating the changes that you want. So I think the first step with resetting feedback loops is making sure that there’s not still chronic pain or there’s not like a pain or you know I often look at who’s and making sure it’s making sure that the horse is even set up to be reset if that makes sense. So So when I do a consult, I ask for photos of pretty much everything, their living circumstances, their feet, because feet are definitely a huge, huge issue. And I think that is gaining traction though. We are seeing more people saying, when was the last time you had a feet x-rayed? You know, is there alignment issues in the hoof plaster and access? And I think there’s definitely a new awareness coming, even though we all know there’s the classic saying, no foot, no horse, right? No hoof, no horse. But there’s new levels, I think, of education coming to owners that they’re like, wait, x-rays but I think the first set of resetting a feedback loop is making sure that the horse is in a place that we could potentially even attempt it. So are their feet in alignment? Have we broken the acute pain cycle? And that’s where like I’m not against injections. I’m not against involving obviously I work very closely with tons of vets because if a horse has gotten to the point where they’re in so much chronic pain or severe pain that they can’t even they literally can’t even fathom it’s like we have to break that pain cycle before we can try and reset a feedback loop. And then we have to make sure that the horse feels safe enough. Because if they’re in a survival mode, you’re not going to be able to change your posture. And we won’t be able to get them a hundred percent out of it completely before we can start to change those feedback loops. But I really believe in making sure that horses feel safe and connected. And that, how do we do that? Well, we have to show them that we’re listening to them with our body language. We have to help them feel safe and make sure that their needs are being met before we can ask them to change. Because usually that the changing of the movement is they have to be, they have to feel safe and that can’t be painful. Because horses, unlike humans, like we go to physio, we understand the physio can explain to us. This is probably not going to be comfortable, but to get to the other side, we’re going to need to do X, Y, Z. And I think that approach does not work the same way on horses because they don’t have the frontal lobes to comprehend where they’re going. So when we’re talking about recent feedback loops, we really have to show the horse that they are safe and that they’re in a place that they can be safe. And that often means doing a lot less and spending, you know, more time, even if it’s just grazing with them or doing something that connects or reaching out to someone who can teach you how to, you know, let your horse say no and let them kind of tell you and how to acknowledge with your body language how they feel. Because once that horse feels safe with you, then we can get somewhere. Because when we trained four things with horses, and it was really interesting because I recently was going down the Temple Grandin rabbit hole as well. But if you know Temple Grandin, anyone doesn’t. So she’s an autistic PhD who works with animals and she shared a really interesting article, I think it was a paper they did on how if we trap prey animals, how much their cortisol levels go up and how much they have a stress response, which makes sense in a flight animal, right? And I think we really need to be aware of that, that by trapping horses and trying to make them do things, we can’t make them do things. If we really want to reset feedback loops, we have to first bring them into the nervous system state and set their body up, mostly their feet for sure, and their movement. like in the way of like their living situation to also not be being made worse. I think that’s that’s something to highlight as well that if a horse chronically lives in a stall um that they’re forced to walk little tiny circles you’re also not going to make you’re not going to see the same changes in them so unfortunately there’s no like clear-cut straight answer to this question but I think it’s more yeah looking at it as a whole.

[SPEAKER 2]
I’m going to give like two simplified scenarios and we’ll see if I’m kind of on the right track with it.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yes.

[SPEAKER 2]
So one may be in the sense of resetting. a feedback loop that was like, let’s say, negatively ingrained from an injury. So let’s say the horse has some sort of a hind end injury and it causes a compensation pattern. So now they lean a certain way or they’re overdeveloped more on one side, things like that. So in order for the horse to truly heal and be balanced and be fully developed from the result of that injury, It’s resetting the feedback loop of how you’re placing your weight, how you’re balancing your body, things like that. So that is one version of resetting a feedback loop.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yes, well, you have to first, you have to first, like, stop the compensation pattern. So that’s, that’s, I think, another big thing that gets missed in rehab, is that people want to go right from they’re kind of stopping, they’re skipping the compensation part. So they’re, they’re maybe stopping the pain cycle, but then they’re going right to strengthening. not realizing that we have to change the way the horse is moving. And like I said, not strengthening dysfunction anymore. So you definitely have to change the way they’re moving, but first we’ve got to invite them to change their compensation pattern or stop the compensation pattern, if that makes sense.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. Okay, perfect. And then the second one was the idea that, let’s say the horse, There was no injury. It could be a young horse, it could be any sort of an age, but there’s no injury. But the person is using an artificial aid, let’s say a lunging equipment, side reins, anything to kind of tie the head down and create a frame effect, to create a headset, things like that. And so the horse is not trained to or taught or educated doesn’t understand essentially how to properly use those muscles instead it’s just. has its head tied in that certain way. And so suddenly we’re seeing these horses that may have a very artificial headset, but they’re not properly using their muscles and they have undeveloped top lines. They end up with weaknesses. They end up with imbalances, all of, you know, attention. because they’re not properly engaging the muscles that they should have been taught to in the first place. Is that a second example? And does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 1]
Yes. Yes. So then in that case, you would have to, like, I often see, and it’s so, again, it’s a little bit frustrating because you think people are just, again, it’s like jumping from like step one to step 10 and it’s like, okay, well, first of all, if the horse has been in that false frame, probably when you take that stuff off, the horse is going to revert. So often they go back up, or they remain heavy on the forehand. So it’s still it comes back to that age, do they feel safe, making them feel safe, or helping them feel safe. And then teaching them that they can first at standstill come into a relaxed posture and then move from there. Because I think when we force the frames and we strengthen dysfunction, a lot of these horses think, again, they’ll go into that false frame, they’re not using themselves appropriately. So in some cases, we do have to get get kind of creative and bring up some curiosity, but then also encourage them to explore their individual limbs. And to this is where I’m a huge fan of like the bodywork and even touch like one of my my girlfriend’s Holly, she was like, Have you ever just thought about grounding the leg? And I was like, I didn’t even think about that. because there is a degree of if let’s say like you said the horse had the hind hind leg injury well and if they’ve kind of the brain kind of stops talking to that limb even just touching it can bring the horse’s awareness back to that area and sometimes that’s enough to start to bring that feedback loop that we want actually back online so there’s a degree of We need to stop the compensation. We need to make sure the nervous system is healthy and in a good state. And then we need to reactivate into the new movement pattern or into the new area of the body. And that’s where it’s not always just a linear path when we’re thinking about resetting feedback loops, because they have been ingrained. But I think it’s looking at the horse as a whole and weighing out, are they set up? to start to reprogram? Are they mentally capable of reprogramming? And then physically doing the reprogramming, which usually starts with walk in straight lines. As simple, and that’s a thing I think sometimes rehab gets overly complicated and resetting feedback loops or what people think is resetting feedback loops, it’s very convoluted. And it’s like, we need to like peel back the layers to the basic, basic, basic basics. It’s like, can the horse just be here in the conversation? do they feel safe with us touching and moving different parts of their body? And then can they just walk without compensating and doing it? And that’s, that’s one of my biggest pet peeves about people giving away exercises just free for all is because they don’t list some of these indications, contraindications and You know, people don’t think it’s that much to ask a horse to just walk over one ground rail. And it’s like, well, if they’re in compensation and they have to compensate to do that, you are strengthening it, unfortunately. And, and I think that’s like one of the biggest things is we have to also stop making them worse. And I think in some cases. people think they’ve reset bodies and they’ve reset you know rehabs and like I’ve seen horses because people post them that have been cleared to return to riding and they’ve improved but I think it’s simply because they stopped riding them in a way that was keeping them sick or keeping them dysfunctional and they’ve maybe gone to long lining or they’ve gone to some other type of rehab And the horse has improved simply because they’re not being made worse. But when we look at them, we’re like, they’re still not tracking up or they still don’t have movement in their pelvis, or they still don’t have a properly developed neck. And you kind of look at them and you go, did you actually reset that? Or do you just, you know, think you did? But again, it’s, it’s not as clear cut, I think, as some people think when we really dial it back.

[SPEAKER 2]
That’s a good point. And, um, When you had said about the grounding of the leg and like there being a disconnection, it reminded me and not to keep bringing it back to my horse Soda, but I truly feel like she’s like a perfect example of this work is I remember her hind end was always cold. Her pelvis, her pelvis was always so, like you would touch all along her body and you know, it was like room, like room, body temperature essentially.

[SPEAKER 1]
Body temperature.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. And, um, and then you would get to her, like her pelvis area and it was always cold. And I’m sure that has to do with like circulation and all of those different things, but essentially at the end of the day, like her body wasn’t talking to it, you know? And I, and I think that’s, that’s also kind of an interesting, um, piece of it as well that made me think of it.

[SPEAKER 1]
Well, and this, let me just say, so this is what they also talk about in The Body Keeps the Score. Sorry, I’m like, I know we talked about it before we started recording, but I just want to say it. too, because this is the somatic experiencing and how, you know, with horses, it’s not just, you know, reprogramming, like mentally or putting them through the motions, either. This is why again, that nervous system health is so important, like you’re saying, because the body keeps a score, they talk about, you know, if something happens to someone, or we know we have childhood trauma, we go to a therapist, and we talk about it. But if something has physically happened to you, you need to also revisit that with the body and like at the body talking again, because there is a degree of separation, like you’re saying, between the brain and the body. And how we go about that is really important. And that’s why again, small plug to the bounce or movement method. But that’s what we’re essentially doing is we’re helping we’re doing the talk therapy, that connection work with the horse. But then we’re also doing like the physical reprogramming and resetting of feedback loops of how the horse can move through space now that they’re in a different nervous system. And I think that, again, that’s a huge piece is that people in the rehab world, a lot of them will spend time trying to do the body part and not the mind part with the horse, where it’s like, we have to have both. We have to have the nervous system and we have to have the physical body. And then we need to work strategically to help reconnect those things. And it feels good about doing that. And it feels safe. It has to feel safe for the horse to make real change.

[SPEAKER 2]
Absolutely. Okay. So We were talking about the feedback loops and helping the horse to whether they’re going to develop themselves for the first time or develop after an injury, anything like that. Most, as we had mentioned, trainers may recommend things like lunging, hand walking, body work, all of those, which are all wonderful and important. When we look at how do we know the horse is ready to begin the physical work? How do we know when they’re ready to venture on from emotional work? Anything like that. How, from a timeline perspective, when would we know Okay, it’s time to move on to this, or it’s time to move on to that. Is there kind of like a clear thing? Or is it totally intuitive? Like, what would you?

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, I say yeah, because each horse is individual, right? So it depends on what they’re starting with. But when I look at I always, you know, you check in, I say you kind of check in with the next step to So when you you know, so like, when I’m starting a horse, like, again, it’s like, it there’s, I would say there’s benchmark that horses meet when I’m when I’m starting a horse. And a lot of them are mental and energetic. And then now with a layer of bounce or movement method, it’s like, okay, well, when I’m looking at a horse and first interacting with them, it’s like, are they in the conversation? So even just your attention span, so let’s just talk about like mentally with a horse. So what are they like, in When you’re grooming them, attacking them, what are they like when something happens? Because there’s no perfect barn out there where absolutely nothing happens when you’re ever working with a horse, right? Like, does a tractor go off? Does, you know, someone else come in the arena? Like, when I’m looking at horses and going, what can they handle? like even I’m someone who will not tie a horse, initially, like I want to be able to groom a horse, tack a horse, then be able to stand and just be present in their own body, you know, in the arena before I’ll ever tie them. And often that is opposite to what some people do. Some people are thinking tying is like a really early high expectation, but I’m like, but It is to a degree, but if the horse does not understand not only pressure and release, like because they’re going to reach, if you tie them, they’re going to get pressure on their halter. How are they going to respond to that? And again, prey, flight animal, but also to all the environmental things, because often, you know, if a horse comes in, let’s say to my barn for training, It’s a boarding barn. It’s very busy. There’s gators, there’s tractors, there’s, you know, well, now I bring a stroller to my barn. So horses in my barn are getting used to strollers, but there’s a lot of stuff going on. So when you’re looking and working with horses, it’s, it’s seeing how they handle just basic things and what their coping is. Because also, if I have a horse who’s super reactive to the smallest things, well, I know that I need to build up their their threshold to exposure in a healthy way, that I’m not shutting down the reactions and they’re able to handle things happening before, when I’m talking mentally, before we go on to next steps. Because in a lot of cases it’s very overwhelming for horses to go into these new situations and have so much happening around them. So you have to, I think, incrementally expose the horse intentionally to different environments, but also see how they react when you have this situation come up that was unpredictable. Because it’ll tell you a lot about their mental state and what they’re able to mentally handle. And also the biggest thing I pay attention to is what’s their attention span? How connected are they? Are they in the conversation? How quickly do they leave? Because that is something that you’ll slowly build up with horse again, as it feels good. Where they’re more and more present and again this does come back to personality because there are some horses who are more engaged and they’re they’re totally with you i say they’re in the conversation like they’re there they’re listening like that’s just who they are and then there’s other horses again probably like circumstances. Who are a bit more checked out so they’re not so much in the conversation and you have to strategically you know with empathy and engagement invite them in the conversation will. Like this one horse i had well he was just well she was she was electric elastic she was like everywhere but here and she had a lot of pain stuff going on. But when she started to stay more and more connected, I didn’t have to invite her back to the conversation. And she was staying with me. It’s like now I can start to ask more of her. Because I think the mental stuff is it’s so huge. It’s so missed in a lot of programs where horses are often trained right away for motor responses, I say so like, in the Western world, we do a lot of like lateral bending, right? Or like bending the horse left bending the horse, right? And a horse can follow that field mentally and physically, but a lot of horses just physically follow it and they’re still thinking somewhere else. So like in my program, when I pick up on a rein for the very first time, I’m going to wait for that horse to mentally come and think about me on the right before, and they may turn their head, but I’m just going to kind of stay with them. And I never increased pressure. I’m not an increasing pressure person, but I would just keep that contact. until I see an error and I come to me and they mentally come to me first and and then okay and then how long does it take so like with some horses I judge that response if they’ve already been started I pick up a rein how long does it take for you to think over here well if it takes you know a couple minutes then that also tells me how long you know how distracted they are but then as it takes less and less and less time and we’re just in the conversation like okay well now I can ask questions of you because I also think if the horse is not there to hear you mentally you’re going to have to escalate your pressure. You’re going to have to yell or, you know, get to the point where you have to be very loud and very, that would be heavy handed or, you know, to get the horse to hear you. And just PS, my headphones are dying and I don’t think I have another set, but it’s a sound. Oh, it’s a sound.

[SPEAKER 2]
Okay.

[SPEAKER 1]
One, one. But I find that, you know, when I’m looking at progress for horses, A, just are they in the conversation and how long can they stay in the conversation? So especially when you’re working with young horses, I find they’re gonna, like children, they’re gonna have a shorter attention span. So as their attention span gets longer and longer, you can ask more and more of them. So from a mental perspective, that’s what I’m looking at. Do they stay connected? How long do they stay connected? And then slowly do we work with expanding that connection and that attention. It’s essentially their attention. And knowing from the beginning for some horses, it’s gonna be very short. You’re gonna get five seconds. you know, but then eventually it’s going to become more and more. And then from a physical aspect, again, with this lens from the balance or movement method that I now have is I really pay attention to posture and muscle development. So when a horse comes to me, there’s always an initial assessment. And I first look, and I shared an article about this, um, just the other day from, um, Yogi, the equine documentalists about like essentially talking about posture. And he was, he had a highlight on, uh, cannon bones and whether or not they’re vertical. And there’s a few people who didn’t even know that that was of importance, that the horse is standing with a vertical cannon bone. And I’m like, that’s a huge deal, because we’re meant to resist gravity with our legs straight up. So the simple test, if you’re listening to this is stand up, lean forward over your toes. Now lean back over your heels, you’ll feel muscles of locomotion being your quads and your and your hamstrings and your glutes fire up when they’re not firing, like aggressively, they’re not in a concentric contraction when you’re just standing, like when you’re just standing over your legs vertically, there’s no real effort. But if I get a horse, and they want to lean forward over their front legs, they want to tuck their hind legs under, and you know, they appear very downhill, their trunk is really sunken through their withers. Well, I’m not going to get on their back until they can naturally stand with cannon bones vertical, and their trunk more supported into what we call a neutral spine. So when I’m looking at developmental lens, now I’m going is the horse does they do they have an adequate top line? Can they walk and trot or can they even just walk and stop without having to use their neck as a lever? Can they corner without following falling in? So when I’m looking and even before I met Celeste, this was something I really paid attention to. I’d never lunged a horse, a young horse on a circle. I, you know, well, as I learned, I, you know, I used to do tiny groundwork circles and then I was like, wait, I met Kate and I was like, that’s not good for their body.

[SPEAKER 2]
She was like, stop lunging your horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
So I would do squares. I would do these gigantic squares around the arena and, you know, really encourage the horse to Stand up as I know it, but now I know that we can develop them how to. Keep their spine and integrity and not fall in from from the ground so i’d spend a lot of time on straight lines. And then I would strategically intentionally introduce corner work corners before circles to those people who are listening, as you can teach your horse how to. be developed and stand up on a corner without having to hold them there? And that is, again, something we’ve learned, I’ve learned from Celeste. And then do they have, again, healthy top line? Are they able to actually maintain their center of gravity or their main center of balance back behind their wither where I eventually want to sit? Can they do that on their own before I will think about sitting on them? And again, I’ll reiterate it’s because they don’t have collarbones. Their, their trunk is meant to drop between their front legs so they can reach the ground and graze. but to be able to ride them safely and not cause kissing spine and not cause compensatory injuries is they need to develop in their serratus and their pectorals, their serratus muscles, so that they can lift and balance their trunk. These are the muscles of the half ball before we even get on them. So I want to make sure that that horse can be able to lift themselves up before I sit on them, where again, I think a lot of people want to sit on the horse and then pick up the front end. And it’s like, That’s like, you know, teaching a person who’s never squatted, and then putting the 45 bar or even a plated 45 bar on their back and saying now learn how to squat. You may figure it out, but it’s going to be ugly, you’re probably gonna hurt yourself, right? So that is my comparison that I first need to learn I need to be able to bodyweight squat before I would ever add weight to that. So why do we add weight to horses and then think we’re going to train them to pick us up? right? It’s just it’s too difficult. So I when I’m developmentally looking at a horse, I have these checkmarks of can you can you walk and stop without using your head and neck? Are your muscles developing and balance? Are you getting any more attention in one place than the other? And what can we do about that? So I think when you’re looking at horses, mentally, are they in the conversation? And strategically, like I’m not saying you should air quotes, I don’t even like desensitizing horses, because I think it has that, that, you know, not great connotation of people chasing horses with tarps. But I do believe in developing thresholds by challenging them within a fair and a safe way. So if I, you know, have a horse and I want to prepare them for a human environment, so what are we likely going to, we’re going to come against things that move, things that make funny noises and horses also categorize, right? So if you’ve got to try and expose them to as many things as possible, but doing it without pushing them into that point of fight or flight, they need to feel safe to learn. And so I do think it’s still important to not just walk on eggshells and not expose our horse and never push their threshold. Because if not, we’re not fairly preparing them for a human environment either. So I think you do, especially before I get on a horse’s back, I put different things, well, you know, they’re comfortable, they consent to saddling all things, but I also I get above them in different ways. I make sure they can see me in both eyes. I make sure that I’m trying to set them up for success every single step of the way. And when you’re looking for that next benchmark, I think you do have to look at their development, look at their mind, but then slowly find ways to creatively explore their threshold. Because that’s also how you grow them, is if you never expose a horse to something, and then all of a sudden something big and bad happens, or you know, a tractor backfires or car backfires, and they’ve never been exposed to a loud noise, they’re not prepared for that. So I think it’s being really creative in how you expose horses and, you know, check in with the next step and see, are you capable of doing this? So I know Warwick Schiller always talks about teach, they should know the answer before you even ask the question. So breaking things down into small steps, knowing where you’re going with that. is really important. And then making sure that all those pieces to that step is present and the horse can do them before asking for that more complicated next thing. But yeah, it’s not always super linear with each horse based on their personality.

[SPEAKER 2]
And I think it kind of goes back to when I was speaking to using, for example, lunging equipment and anything like that, again, you’re working the horse physically but not mentally and so you’re missing the mental piece where they’re not understanding the engagement of the muscle in order for it to truly work. The other thing I just want to quickly mention for those that are kind of wondering about why we had mentioned lunging and going in circles and things like that is because If the horse is not properly balanced, going in a circle, they’re going to be leaning on the inside. They’re going to be bent to the outside. And so them going around that way is going to either continue to create compensation patterns in a negative way, or it’s going to put them in that direction. That’s kind of what we had meant by that, is that if you have a horse that isn’t balanced, going in a circle might not be the best thing for it. No.

[SPEAKER 1]
And the one of the, I, I learned listening to one of, I think it was Audrey’s podcast about how it really came full circle for me. And I show this to all my new clients who aren’t necessarily in the balance removal method is if you just take your arm out and you turn your thumb down. So horses, again, if you think about it, there, there’s nothing really attaching the spine and the rib cage to the front legs. But the pelvis is attached, right? And the spine, we think about how long it is. So if you just think about if the spine can rotate, so when a horse falls in on a circle, what’s actually happening is the entire ribcage and spine are essentially rotating between the front legs and rotating to the middle. And that, we say it feels like they’re shouldering in or they’re dropping a shoulder, but essentially what’s happening is the entire spine and ribcage is rotating to the middle. But then at the pelvis, because it’s fixed, it can’t rotate. So we get this kind of torsion happening into the lumbosacral. So that’s one problem. But what the real problem is, is that because there’s two ribs coming to one spinal process, you now cannot laterally bend. The horse cannot become the circle if they’re falling in. So if you put your arm up and you turn your thumb down, and try and bend your elbow. It’s like if you Yeah, like you put your thumb down, your pinky comes up and I’ll try and bend your elbow like you put your right hand there. You’ll see you’ll feel the tension in that that if you’re trying to hold that rotation and bend, you really can’t do it. So now you picture the horse’s spine rotating underneath of you. Those ribs cannot Oh, you know, because if you picture one side kind of close a little bit one side opens if the spine is rotating, those ribs cannot open and close the horse cannot truly become the circle they are traveling on, if they’re falling in. And then another way to feel it as a human is to just if you stand up and you walk a really small circle, and what you’ll feel in this, I love doing this at clinics. And what I’m doing lectures is you’ll see that if you’re walking, and even when I just lift my arms out, some people may see this, if I go to turn left, and I move my right or my left arm, my shoulders tip over, Like I literally fall over where if I go to turn left by reaching forward with my right hand, my full spine, my whole spine rotates. So if you’re walking and you’re walking a circle and you’re putting a little bit of weight into your left leg, let’s say you’re walking left circle, you’re going to notice that your right leg has to add duct you have to cross almost in front of your left to try and keep you from falling over and you kind of end up in this you know cycle of outside leg coming over inside to keep you from falling over where if you walk that same circle but you think about stepping into your right foot instead of your left you can walk on two different tracks And you’ll stay upright and you won’t fall over. So this is where I think, you know, again, people start horses on circles. A lot of vets recommend rehabbing on circles, but I’m like that horse, if they don’t know how to bring their center of gravity and how to step into the roadside front without jackknifing, they can’t actually do the circle properly and it’s going to cause more issue. So that’s why we’re so big on straight lines before circles because The horse just can’t do it. And I’m not sure if everyone’s ever thought about it in that way. Like, I definitely didn’t think about it this way until Galecki explained it.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, it was a huge light bulb. And I think, too, it’s one of those things where we also have to give a little bit of a grace. to everyone that is learning this, because I know that for myself in learning this, there’s different stages of it. You can have a stage of denial, you can have a stage of pushback, you can have a stage of… I know for myself, I went through… feeling stuck like well then I you know almost like backing away from it all like it was easier to do nothing than to do something wrong like it was almost like a fear thing of I don’t want to do something wrong so I just won’t do anything at all and so there’s all these different stages of the the reworking essentially of the way that many of us were taught so I know that for me circling was one of those where it was a total

[SPEAKER 1]
Like, wait, what?

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, exactly. Shift. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so I want to start to wrap this up a little bit because, you know, we’re covering a ton here. I don’t want to overwhelm people. One of the things that I wanted to define was the four survival responses. Three to four, I think it is, is like the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. If you can kind of briefly go over those. Yeah, for sure. And then, yeah, and then we’ll go from there.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, so when we think about, I think, it’s very common knowledge, people know about the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. And polyvagal theory is very interesting, because they’ve added, basically, there’s a theory that there is a second branch to the parasympathetic, and it basically is social engagement. And when we think about these survival, when we think about the autonomic nervous system, we very much think about survival and It basically is essentially running in the background. It’s what keeps us alive and can have these different, you know, things that keep us alive. So the fight and flight are essentially sympathetic, they come from more of a sympathetic place. So when we’re in a sympathetic state, we also will will have less blood flow. So like from a paramedic perspective, we think well, less blood flow goes to the organs, it goes primarily to the heart and the lungs, and the extremities so that you can literally fight or flight. And you will, in some cases, it’ll be it’s a very like you dump adrenaline and cortisol and very stressful place to be. But When you really look at the at the nervous system, it’s a very old, right, it’s very primitive part to keep us alive. And it’s only meant to be short glimpses, like we’re only meant to fight and flight and then and then come back to reset. And then the fawn and freeze are our characteristics of part of the parasympathetic nervous system. where if we get to a point where fight and flight are not working, then we will go into basically shut down or freeze or on. And my understanding of of that is there can also be like varying degrees of it, like we talked about where you kind of go through the motions as someone like Wendy Murdoch recently called it like airplane mode, where you’re kind of disconnected from your body, you’re just kind of going through the motions. But then there’s the extreme freeze where literally shut down or like a part of a vasovagal syncope where you literally just completely like your body literally shuts you down and you go blank. So there’s varying degrees and some people even say like slush to freeze because you can be kind of slushy where you’re disconnected going through the motions or you can be in full shutdown and these are commonly the horses that get labeled as lazy and and you know or people buy them because they think they’re super safe. because they are the very agreeable, what appears to be very agreeable, very calm, very knows their job and just does it. But then the danger, I feel like some of those horses can actually be the most dangerous because sometimes then They just explode. They fill their cup, their trigger stack, and then they blow. And because they’ve been so shut down and all of their more subtle communications have been dismissed in the past, they don’t use them. And then they just blow up. So to me, some of those horses can actually be the most dangerous. But they also will be the ones that would probably go critically lame sooner too, because they’re not going to communicate and that often we see that come from learned helplessness. I’m not sure, I know we were going to talk about it, but basically learned helplessness comes from when You are repeatedly put into situations that are stressful and you are not able to do any of your fighting or your fighting, you lose control. So you just basically come into this passivity, like you’re passive, you’re tolerant, there’s nothing you can do about it, so you just accept it. And unfortunately, that happens when people flood horses. So when they’re trying to desensitize, and, you know, let’s say the classic, you bring the tarp over, the horse gets overwhelmed, starts to leave. Not many of them, some will come at you and fight, but some of them will just try and leave and you hold on to them. And you kind of chase them with the tarp until they stop moving. And then you take it away. You just taught them learned helplessness. You taught them that flight doesn’t work. And then when they finally stopped moving, it goes away. But what they did was they went into freeze. like flight wasn’t working, so they went into freeze. And you’re actually shutting down learning. When you do that, you’re teaching them that they cannot problem solve the way out of it. They can’t. So it’s really not as helpful as what people think. It does create a quiet, agreeable force to the point that they may or may not eventually blow up. So when we see fight or flight, and what’s interesting about polyvagal theory is that in mammals, we do have this extra piece of the vagus nerve that is myelinated, they’re still trying to fully understand it. But the idea is that with social engagement, we learn to first, there will be a hierarchy of reaction. So first, we’ll try and problem solve. So mammals will try and problem solve, whether or not it’s a dangerous situation. But when we can’t problem solve, then we go instinctual. So then we go into fight or flight, and or freeze. And I really want people to understand the importance of recognizing this in horses and how we can develop that more of a problem solving, you know, basically all is good state where horses are able to think and are able to learn. But first, it comes from safety. They have to feel safe in order to develop that part of them. And same thing with humans. If you don’t feel safe, you feel anxious, you’re in danger. very hard to learn anything. That’s why, you know, people will really struggle in school to have anxiety. And they don’t feel safe in school, because you’re constantly in a state of stress. And it’s hard to take a new information if you’re just trying to survive. So when we’re working with horses, it’s really important if your horse is very quickly into fight or flight, or freeze. And again, they almost look like they’re, they’re there, but no one’s home. then they’re not going to learn anything. They can’t learn in those stages. And I think that’s what I want people to really understand is if you bring a horse into an environment, and again, when you come in for training or you go, you know, you move into a new barn, you want to work with them. If they do not feel safe in that arena, if they do not feel safe in that barn, You cannot teach them anything. I cannot emphasize this enough. If you do not meet the needs of the horse and help them feel safe, and they’re present and connected with you, if you then get on, and you constrict them, and you try and school them while they’re worried about everything, you are not teaching them squat, other than what they need to do to survive. And this was something that Wendy Murdoch had on her name is Violet Van Hees. And she is a phenomenal at explaining polyvagal theory. And that was one thing she said that really sat with me too. She’s like, if you’re If you are trying to do things and something’s in front of their plate, all they’re learning is how to better survive. So if that means that you’re trying to ride your horse and, you know, spooking or, you know, flighting is what gets you off. Well, they were in a state where they just learned that they should do that because it helps them survive. It takes the pressure off. So I wish people would just really, really dive into this and really understand that if you’re not meeting the needs of your horse, and again, the needs are just primarily feel safe. And then you’re trying to teach them something, it’s not going to go well. And that’s why also, you know, taking that into account, knowing that if you go to a show and extremely overwhelming, your horse may not perform their best either. So is it better to maybe try hauling it to a friend’s farm with less stimulus to start there if you ever want to compete? Like there are these ways that you can, again, kind of micro-expose your horse to be more prepared in these environments, but that is something that, you know, I really emphasize to people is if your horse is feeling, again, what this would present, like if you come in the arena, their heads up, They’re looking around, they may even be pushing into you a little bit. They’re spooky. They’re, you know, tense. They’re a little bit reactive. They’re not in full fight or flight, but they’re not in social engagement. They’re not connected and calm and relaxing in a learning state, you need to bring them into that state before you can teach them anything. And this goes for humans, too. If you if you don’t feel safe, you can’t learn. And you can’t build new symptoms. I’m like, I’m like, my brain’s not working out. But You can’t build new synapses. You can’t build new neural pathways if you don’t feel safe, or you’re going to build them in the wrong direction. You’re going to build them in a fight or flight type of manner. So helping your horse feel calm and connected and bring them into a learning state, you will get so much more achieved than if you try and force something to happen if they’re worried and concerned.

[SPEAKER 2]
I feel like we have covered So much in this and and I’m looking at the the different directions that we went in in terms of mentally emotionally physically and I feel like People are gonna have to listen I know I’m gonna have to relisten to this again and people are gonna want to listen to this again twice because there is so much information here to be going through and is there anything else that like you want to add or emphasize or clarify or anything like that that you feel that maybe we didn’t get to in this.

[SPEAKER 1]
I would say the one thing to really like we’re talking a lot about the horse’s nervous system here. And this will be my prompt for anyone listening to that. It also starts with you and your nervous system because horses are mirrored. They have a ton of mirror neurons. And that is why, again, like sometimes horses will look like they’re moving like blocks of birds because of these mirror neurons. But we as humans, if we are not regulated and we don’t have a grounding practice, we don’t have, if we can’t be the energy that we want our horse to be, we need to first work on that because the horse is going to feel, they can feel your intention. They totally know if you are calm, if you are in the calm, connected energy that you are expecting of them, it first starts with us. So I know we haven’t said that a whole lot. We talked a lot about what’s going on with the horse’s nervous system. And I’m not saying if you’re not perfectly regulated, you can’t be around your horse, but just be aware of how it will affect your horse and to have fair expectations of your horse. Because if you have a really high anxiety and it’s very stressful, really heavy day and you cannot, calm yourself, just be aware that your horse is going to pick up on that. And it may not be fair to ask them to do a super complex schooling that day, right? Or to just maybe the best thing you can do is just go take them in graze and the two of you are going to breed together in the field. So I think being aware of us, I’m not saying you have to be perfect to work with your horse, but you have to at least have the awareness of what state you’re in to then have fair expectations of your horse, because they are going to mirror you. And I think that they are really wonderful teachers in that way that they kind of show us where we’re also at. And that it gives us that that time to kind of practice and be more mindful and just slow down and to let go of expectations and judgment because we need to let go of that of ourselves. So I’m not saying don’t work with your horse, but just be aware so that it can govern some of the expectations you may have of them and that you can continue to work on emotional regulation together. I think that that is something I want to highlight.

[SPEAKER 2]
Such a good thing to wrap this up. I am so glad that you brought that up. Yeah, 100%. We have four We Horse questions or like rapid fire questions that we ask at the end of every episode. So we’re going to jump right into the first one. Do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
I have so many. I have three, but I’m going to say, but I’m, I’m a huge quotes person. Um, but I think to also wrap up with this talk is it, the Leslie, Leslie Desmond is who I heard it from, and this may not be exactly, but this is the gist of it. If no is not an option. Yes. It’s not an answer. So if your horse can’t say no to you or can’t say even I’m unsure. then are they truly saying yes when you get them to do something and when I heard that from her I was like wow that is like it’s also a life quote right like and with the whole conversation around consent these days a maybe, you know, is not a yes, like, and if you can’t say no, like, and that was Pino, he was never that horse was never allowed to say no. So he just got to the point where that was all he would say. And when I first started really changed the way I worked with horses, and letting them, you know, say no to me and acknowledging that no by stepping back or stopping, you know, with the approach or whatever I was doing, I started getting yes, so much more frequently. What I really understood, then was that If they know they can say no, they’re more likely to say yes. Where if they can’t say no, they’re going to be more hesitant about saying yes because they don’t, you know, I’m not so sure. And it’s funny because I can see that with kids too. I now being a mother, I can totally see how if, you know, you just had have to do something and makes you kind of be a little bit apprehensive, where if you have the option to say no, you feel more comfortable with that person. You feel safer, essentially, that they will respect whatever you have to say. you know, at whatever point. So I think that that’s definitely one of my favorites. And then also your life unfolds in proportion to your courage. So I think a lot of people are so scared to make changes. And this also my other one is everything you want is on the other side of fear. And I think as equestrians, we’re so aware, sorry, I’m like, if anyone can hear my baby, she’s over here talking. But some of us are so scared to do what we were, you know, being guided to do or asked to do, because we’re so, so fearful of judgment of other people in our barn in our life. Why are you coming to the competition? Why aren’t you riding? Why are you this? Why are you that? But it’s like, your life will unfold in proportion to your courage. And like, that has been so true with my life. But also, it’s going to be scary to make change, like change is not comfortable for humans, even though that’s the only constant. And if you’re willing to

[SPEAKER 2]
My baby.

[SPEAKER 1]
If you’re willing to do something that is scary to you, you will also often realize that you made it way more scary than it needed to be. That is actually how you gain confidence is you do something that originally scared you. And then you see that it wasn’t so scary. You’re like, wait, if I can do that, I can probably do something else. And I feel like it slowly starts to roll that confidence ball as well. So those are, you know, just a few of my favorite motives and saying, but definitely if no is not an option, yes, is not a true answer. And I think that goes for humans and horses across the board.

[SPEAKER 2]
My husband says that when I start to clap when I talk, I’m getting sassy. And I just want to say like those three quotes and like mottos that you just said, like I’m clapping right now. Like those were so good. Like I, I, I love those three. I think that they not only are fantastic, but they just like went so beautifully with our conversation as well. Um, love those. I’m going to like re listen to this specifically to rewrite those down.

[SPEAKER 1]
They’re also in my Facebook cover photos. I used to love to put up, I’d get a new favorite quote, and I was like, oh, that just lights me up inside. And I would put it in my Facebook cover photo. So if anyone’s looking for more, there’s a bunch more like that in there as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
I was just cleaning out my laptop this morning because the battery and the hard drive and everything is getting full. So I was going through and cleaning it out. And I was like, oh my gosh, I have so many quotes saved. Okay, the second question is who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey

[SPEAKER 1]
it’s so hard to say like one specific person so can I’m like can I give three yeah because definitely obviously my mother because she got me you know in in divorces and where I am today and then I would say honestly Warwick Schiller was such a turning point for me um when I found him and he was I literally found him when he was starting to go through his change and his transformation from being you know your classical FBI rainer you know who used old school natural horsemanship to this mindfulness awareness, because that was a huge pivotal moment. And then obviously my third has been Celeste. So meeting Celeste, because I had gotten, I felt as far as I could go with Warwick. And, you know, I got to the point where I couldn’t out-connect pain in horses and I needed more answers. And that’s when Celeste arrived to me. And she has just, you know, helped me see all the things and have the answers. We obviously don’t have all the answers, but she was able to answer a lot of questions that I had that no one else had been able to give me an answer to. So she is definitely pivoted my life again in such a beautiful way. And the community she’s built and the women I’ve connected with and, you know, it’s just been phenomenal. So I would say, yeah, those those three, three people, I can’t just give one.

[SPEAKER 2]
And for those listening, Celeste, that she’s referring to, she and I, I can’t even remember our podcast episode number. It was recently, it was like December, January. 21, Being a Student of the Horse. 21, okay, perfect. If anybody wants to go back and listen to that one, it’s episode 21 with Celeste. That is who, anytime that Betsy has mentioned Celeste or the balance or movement method, that’s what she’s referring to.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yep.

[SPEAKER 2]
The third question is, if you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
It would be let your horse say no. That would be or learn, learn how to accept no from your horse. Like I, I can’t emphasize this enough and like, we’ll really like wrap it up. It’s like, like asking permission. It’s like asking permission. And like, there is a way that you can with your body language. Again, keep in mind, horses are mainly body language animals. that the way that you approach your horse, the way you pause, the way you position yourself, learn how to communicate with your horse, with your body and to acknowledge what they’re saying with your body language. I would say that was the biggest transformational shift for me. And like, I have examples on my Instagram of like my one horse, Maya, who just by doing body language work with her, she then came, came over and laid down in front of me and fell asleep. after probably not sleeping for I don’t know how long, but that was like another pivotal moment where just by learning how to use my body language to communicate with her, it helped her feel safe and helped her just come into ultimate vulnerability with me. And I will never forget that moment. And then ever since that’s how I build rapport and build trust and safety with horses who I meet basically as a stranger is learning how to communicate with my body language to acknowledge them. and to say like, I see that you’ve seen me, essentially. So that would be my best advice. And it’s basically learning when to stop and to pause.

[SPEAKER 2]
I remember like a year or so ago, you were posting on Instagram and you were showing examples of when horses are saying no. So for example, if you’re approaching a horse in the paddock to put a halter on it, and it’s turning its head away from you, and it doesn’t have to run away, it doesn’t have to anything like that. It’s when it’s turning its head. And so many people, you just grab the head and you put the halter on it, you know, or something like that. And it’s like, if you can acknowledge that, you know, just take a step back for a second, you know.

[SPEAKER 1]
And then they look at you.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. And I remember when you were posting that thinking, oh my gosh, like I’ve completely ignored that. I’ve seen that so many times and I’ve ignored it. And it’s just all of those little moments that just make you think.

[SPEAKER 1]
Or yeah, the biggest one I would say also turning away, but also turning in front of you. So if you go to walk to one side of your horse or the other, and most horses will say no on the right side, I think because we don’t handle them as much over there. And your horse goes to move their head in front of you as you go to walk up beside them, that’s them blocking you. They’re trying to like catch you before you get over there because they’re not a hundred percent comfortable with you stepping over there. And I find, especially with horses that I’m just meeting for the first time, like that, that crucial moment when I go to step and I’m literally watching for it now, cause I’m aware of it. I’m watching for them to say, are you comfortable with me or not? And if they swing their head out and go to sniff you, they’re actually being left just yet, you know, and then spend some time, step back, engage them. But that can be one of the first opportunities too, to. to say to your horse, I saw that because most people would then again, just like you’re saying, either catch the head and pull it in, or they’ll catch the head and push it out of the way. And you just dismissed a communication from your horse. So that’s also why I’m not a huge fan of cross ties yet. We find cross ties in every barn. You cross tie a horse, you trap a prey animal’s head. And again, their body language, what they do with their head is crucial communication. So if you also put your horse in cross ties and fix them, they can’t turn their head and say no. So what do they do? They move their feet, they stomp them, they toss their head up and down. So I also encourage people to maybe spend some time, you know, not in cross eyes and see what your horse has to say about you walking up beside them, grooming them, tacking them, where they do have an opportunity to tell you how they feel.

[SPEAKER 2]
The last one is, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are.

[SPEAKER 1]
So for me, horses are, I would say the most the greatest unintended teacher. Like I think we’ve talked about this like quite a bit and I know many people say this but horses I don’t think go out to teach us things intentionally but they are literally like the greatest teachers because when they are authentic and when they are getting to well even just the mirroring right like they are telling us and showing us what is happening within us to a degree, right? And they also, like, I would not know what I know if everything hadn’t gone wrong with my horses, right? Like, they have taught me so much, but they never intended to teach me that, right? They’re just so authentic. So I think to me, horses are really the greatest unintentional teacher, because it’s not their intention to teach. Now, mind you, there’s some very wise horses, I think, who do teach lessons. But for the most part, I would say they’re the most unintended teacher, but they teach you so much if we’re just willing to learn.

[SPEAKER 2]
I absolutely hear you on that. We’ve already covered, is there anything else to add? Where can people find you and how can they connect with you?

[SPEAKER 1]
So, um, they can find me on Instagram and Facebook. Uh, I have, I’m just, I’m trying to be the same across all platforms, balance with Betsy. Um, I do have a website that is definitely due for updating since I met Celeste, I had just become pregnant and it was a heck of a whirlwind and it’s on my to-do list, but I do have a website as well. Um, balance with Betsy. Um, it just hasn’t been updated with all the balance for movement method, um, work, but really Instagram and Facebook, you can find me as balance with Betsy and Betsy Fonda.

[SPEAKER 2]
I’ll link all three. And and then that way, if people want to go on your website and contact you through there and that and then just know to go back and check it again, you know, at a later date, but for the most part, I was gonna say in the balance removal method website, I am listed as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
And you can book with me through Calendly. I’m also balanced with Betsy on Calendly. And there’s options to book sessions on there as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
Okay, perfect. I’ll link that too. And you’re very active on social media and that. So if anybody wants to follow Betsy, I highly recommend, whether you’re an Instagram or Facebook person, you’re a great resource to follow on there. So I’ll link all those. Perfect. Thank you so much for being here. Um, like I said, this is such an informative episode. Um, I hope people get as much out of this as I know that I’ve gotten in the past two hours that we’ve been talking. Um, and then plus, like I said, I’m definitely going back and relistening to this again. Um, so thank you so much for sharing everything that you’ve shared.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER 2]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by wehorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at wehorse underscore USA, and check out our free seven-day trial on wehorse.com, where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.