Philippe Karl – Founder of the Ecole de Légèreté

*** This transcript was created by AI and has not been proofread ***

[SPEAKER 1]
Hi everyone, this is the Equestrian Experience from wehorse, the online riding academy. My name is Christian Grober and today I’m pleased to welcome one of the great masters of classical dressage from Europe. A man that has been part of the French Military Riding Academy as écoeurier of the world famous Cadre Noir of Saumur. He then formed his own school of riding, the school of lightness in French, the École de Légèreté. It is Philipp Karel and we’re going to talk about the importance of riding horses correctly and how his approach, his view on things, may help every rider regardless of the discipline. Let’s go. I’m very happy to have one of our most renowned wehorse trainers in our podcast today, and we very much look forward to having him. Welcome and bienvenue, Monsieur Philippe Kahl.

[SPEAKER 2]
Thank you very much.

[SPEAKER 1]
Everyone knows the school of légèreté. Everyone knows your philosophy of riding and the style of schooling. For everyone that doesn’t know yet, what is the school of légèreté?

[SPEAKER 2]
Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER 1]
A broad question to start.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, a broad question. I would say that already when I started riding, being 20, and immediately totally passionate and even after that deciding to stop medicine studies to do that as a profession, which was totally crazy, I wanted maybe because I started being a bit an adult already and as a personal decision not by a family tradition or good I had some I was quite demanding already and for instance I had big difficulties to follow lessons and do what the teachers were saying if I had no explanation, if I could not understand why, what is the suppose, why it works, why it doesn’t work. So I was the perfect difficult student for that. And I was insisting. As often, I had no sufficient answer or long sentences with no clear sense, which is a specialty in writing. Long sentences.

[SPEAKER 1]
Complexity.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. Which doesn’t say anything that clear. And as I had a bit of a scientific tendency, I was looking for explanations. I mean a bit anatomy, a bit physiology, a bit this and that.

[SPEAKER 1]
Because you’ve also been a medicine student.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, and also reading masters more than the result of the last competition.

[SPEAKER 1]
So…

[SPEAKER 2]
With and watching experienced people, riders, trainers, people like that, and especially Olivera in that time, I came to the idea that there are much better solutions than what we are doing. And I found some of these ideas in many books already. And especially in the General Lot, in Boucher, in people like that. And I was very… logically attracted by solutions which exclude constraining instruments, power, sweating, because when you exclude this and it works, you are necessarily finding a better solution. There is no long discussion. If you eliminate these solutions, And it works, again. It’s because you understand better what the horse needs. Mentally, physically, in terms of balance, whatever you want. And it has always been my way to select what I keep in mind, what I eliminate. And naturally I was doing big mistakes as anybody in learning, but I was constantly trying to use less special beats, less and not at all working range and no power finding. And solutions we could explain. I mean, it works because. And it works on this type of horse, not on this one, because. And as long as I had not an explanation, even on the exceptions, which are supposed to confirm the rule, I was not satisfied. And you do that 50 years, training any kind of horse, this is the other thing. I never had the opportunity to ride fantastic horses. This one is not good enough, it doesn’t work, another one. I was forced to use the horses I had. And sometimes complicated ones, spoiled, damaged, difficult, whatever you want. And sometimes good ones. And it makes an amount of experiences which progressively create something quite steady and strong and consistent and I could say that I was daily trying to make the pyramid higher and more steady and stronger and so much and naturally with this with this tendency and trying to get clear ideas and the possibility to explain how it works and why and this and that and having rules out of it. it became for me a pleasure to explain and to teach. Because in fact the reason why there are so few good teachers and a lot very quickly shouting because not accepting the question because they don’t have clear answers. It’s this, I mean, you know. When you can explain why it works, why it doesn’t work, what is the plan, what we do next time and do it yourself, show how it works. I mean, it’s a pleasure to teach.

[SPEAKER 1]
It’s true.

[SPEAKER 2]
And it’s even a pleasure to find solutions on difficult horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
And then you are able to find solutions.

[SPEAKER 2]
And then you go on improving what you are doing constantly. The practice makes the theory more clear. The theory is confirmed by the practice or not. And it is snowball which becomes very big.

[SPEAKER 1]
Bigger and bigger. Only a couple of days left until the great and amazing WeHorse Online Festival for trainers like world champion Ingrid Klimke, equine therapist and founder of the Masterson Method, Jim Masterson, classical dressage trainer Anja Baron from Germany, horsemanship and dressage expert Karen Rolf, all of them in amazing sessions, presentations and live Q&As, something for everyone. It is fully digital. You only need a device. internet connection and one of the limited seats. Get yours now on wehorse.com slash festival-us it is wehorse.com slash festival-us sunday september 12th 10 a.m eastern wehorse online festival How did you initially come in touch with horses? What’s your personal background? How did you grow up?

[SPEAKER 2]
My father was riding a bit when he was an officer during the war, the beginning of the war.

[SPEAKER 1]
You’re originally from France, so he was in the French army during World War II.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yes, at the beginning, because it has been short, as you know. But it didn’t go on riding afterwards. And I mean, you know, in the 50s, everybody was not riding as nowadays. And it was not in the plan. There was not the money to do it, and there was no question. But I had an uncle who was a rider. I didn’t see him riding because he was in North Africa, but I heard him during all holidays talking about that. And I was very attracted by any horse I could cross anywhere. And so when it was time to decide for a profession, and I could do medicine, I could do this, I could do that, I was interested in In classical studies, I mean, the possibilities were very open. And this was the problem I could decide for many things. And maybe it’s my temperament. I wanted to do something I’m passionate with. I didn’t want to have just a good profession earning money. Which is also good. And afterward, the challenge is to do this profession still using one’s brain. Because it’s very easy when people have to earn their life with this profession to start being rough. And I understand because it’s an incredibly difficult profession. And afterward, the necessity to properly earn your life. Exactly. Which is also something not easy.

[SPEAKER 1]
At least to make some money, right?

[SPEAKER 2]
Enough.

[SPEAKER 1]
Just enough to… For survival.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. And then… Yeah, and then I’ve been a bit lucky because my first job was quite interesting. It was for the Minister of Agriculture.

[SPEAKER 1]
So, but first you studied medicine for five years.

[SPEAKER 2]
One year, no, no.

[SPEAKER 1]
Only one year and then you skipped.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yes. And then I did the selection to enter a school. with three years studies on breeding, any kind of breeding, including horses, and including the teacher exam at the end. I did that, three years. And afterward, I was in charge of the writing department in a national school.

[SPEAKER 1]
In Soumurs? No, no, no.

[SPEAKER 2]
In Rambouillet.

[SPEAKER 1]
Ah, okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
The school where I was when I was a student. And I was there seven years. Afterward, I’ve been independent and difficult. And I was training an Anglo-Arabian, a stallion, who was a guy refusing to go forward from a student of mine, but refusing to go seriously. And I was competing, jumping a bit with him and pushing his education quite far because he was in Piaf and things like that, the Spanish walk and things like that. There are photos of him in one of my books.

[SPEAKER 1]
And?

[SPEAKER 2]
I was offered a 10 pages article in a magazine, an interesting magazine at that time, and I was explaining what I was thinking, that why, with many photos of this horse and explanations, why people are specialized dressage, others jumping… Why are they not general horse riders, correct? Yeah, and especially when the official speech is, with the classical riding, you can do everything. But I had on the same horse, And this is what I was doing with that one. And I was trying to explain that. How is it possible to practice jumping a nice way using the best of the French tradition riding? Already, huh?

[SPEAKER 1]
In your mind already?

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, this was in the end 70s, early 80s. So I did this article and with photos of the horse from double launch to Piaf and Spanish walk and jumping. And I got a phone call. Hello. Colonel Durand at the Appareil, head of the Black Box. I read your article. I find it very interesting. What are you doing? Where are you?

[SPEAKER 1]
Etc.

[SPEAKER 2]
Who are you? I was first thinking somebody is teasing me. But no, it was the reality. And I was invited to go to Saumur for some days, teaching there. And at the end, he offered me to enter the school.

[SPEAKER 1]
For everyone that doesn’t know, Saumur and the Cadre Noir is like a national monument in France. And kind of like the gatekeeper of the French riding philosophy.

[SPEAKER 2]
It’s supposed to, but it’s not. I’m sorry, maybe we will talk about that. It’s another problem.

[SPEAKER 1]
But then you’ve been for, I believe, 13 years. 13

[SPEAKER 2]
years. And in that time it was still interesting, I would say. And since that time, it has been, as most of the… so-called classical institutions declining a lot due to the dressage competition influence. I mean, and I saw all this development. I started riding in 67. The riding was not, it was not art everywhere. But they were, most of the time they were rules that were respected. And progressively, the riding developed a totally unexpected way. More and more people riding, more and more professionals, more and more competition, more and more sponsors, more and more money, and the same problem in riding than in any other sport. Then came the incredible development of the dressage competition. And then came the overflex horses, hyperflexion and end. And this is things we didn’t exist in the past. I mean, I remember passing the teacher exam. I mean, if your horse had the nose a little bit behind the vertical one second, because it can always happen, but a bit more than that, you were out, simply. And it was absolutely no question to have tight noseband and special one to clench completely and things like that. I mean, to use the side range or things like that was also something not accepted. And all that things are completely normal now. You look even strange if you don’t do it.

[SPEAKER 1]
What would you say, what are the reasons why you see those developments? What are the reasons that the rules of classical dressage… Less culture, more business.

[SPEAKER 2]
quickly make money.

[SPEAKER 1]
So you would say it’s the business aspect that… Business aspect and less culture. I mean… There’s also less tradition?

[SPEAKER 2]
No, but when people, when there is less writing culture, people forget the tradition. They don’t even know that they exist, they are existing. I mean, if I, when I’m for instance talking with a French teacher, I was in Saumur, Many of them were not interested at all in the culture they should know and defend and practice. It’s like that nowadays. Things have to go fast, make money quickly. And I saw, for instance, the content of the teacher’s exam in France becoming easier and easier and easier, and the level declining a lot. In the last 30 years, it’s obvious.

[SPEAKER 1]
But you’ve been, for 13 years, éculier at the Cadre Noir.

[SPEAKER 2]
From 85 to 98.

[SPEAKER 1]
Back then, how would you describe the role of the cadre noir back then for the classical French style of writing?

[SPEAKER 2]
It’s complicated to explain.

[SPEAKER 1]
At least we give it a try.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. To have a more complete answer you could read the text I was writing and putting on my internet. I think it’s in German too. I was writing a text. with the agreement and the control of General Durand, the one I was talking about.

[SPEAKER 1]
He was in charge, he was in the Ministry of Agriculture, I reckon.

[SPEAKER 2]
He was first international jumping rider in the French team, successful, excellent, then he has been the client chef, then he has been the director. And I was keeping very close to him. And he died two years ago. And maybe you heard of this acknowledgement of the French traditional writing, the French writing in the UNESCO.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah. Good. It’s historical heritage in UNESCO.

[SPEAKER 2]
The problem is, are we showing the heritage? Because to convince the UNESCO to protect something is not that difficult. If they are not riders and they don’t have a long, deep riding culture, you can teach them, tell them whatever you want. And my question was, and I am explaining that in this article, Is there a necessity to talk about French writing? This is the first question. Does it make sense? Does it mean something? It means something if we find in the whole writing, French writing culture, elements that are specific that you don’t find in other traditions. and that justify to talk about a French philosophy of schooling the horses. Otherwise, stop it. We don’t need all this complicated story. So, and then I was listing all these elements because they are. I give you some examples like that. The hands, the seat, the legs. any other instrument, some side reins, Schlafzugel, whatever you want, absolutely refused.

[SPEAKER 1]
Forbidden.

[SPEAKER 2]
It starts with La Guerriniere, it goes on with Bochet, and it goes on with General Lot. This is something to notice, no? It’s something clear on several centuries, and you don’t find anywhere else. Nobody talks about. That’s strange.

[SPEAKER 1]
And

[SPEAKER 2]
And why it’s like that? Because there is this idea that a fundamental part of the education of the horse is teaching them the hand. Instead of looking for an instrument to prevent the horse from doing something you don’t want, you teach him to do what you want. with an education to this. So using the hand to teach different signals to give different reactions, organizing them together according to the horses level and so on. It’s something complex but fantastic, incredibly effective. With the satisfaction not to constrain the animal.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good.

[SPEAKER 2]
This is typical. I don’t say that you cannot find some ideas a bit like that in other traditions. But this is fundamental and typical of this philosophy. You find it a little bit already in La Guérinière. For instance, you don’t find the idea that the hands have to keep down all the time. They are not supposed to prolong and repeat the effect of the side reins. They are to be used in a more and more discrete way because the horse knows, but they are supposed to have a conversation with the horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good.

[SPEAKER 2]
They don’t talk about that in the UNESCO story.

[SPEAKER 1]
Not at all.

[SPEAKER 2]
And I could go on the list like that. And so I was listing all that things. There are many others such as for instance, the hands without the legs, the legs without the hands. It’s clear and especially on the light of other disciplines that when you teach the hand, you cannot spoil the message by using your legs at once. If you want to measure and judge the reaction to one signal of the hands or of the legs, you should not spoil it by a contradiction. It’s very demanding to the rider, this.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good.

[SPEAKER 2]
And then progressively you can do combinations. And all these ideas really make a philosophy.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good.

[SPEAKER 2]
And then the French riding, one of the first high-ranking representing this is supposed to be the Cordon Noir. And if you go there nowadays, I suggest that you do, you will see Noseband like that, Overflex horses and anything of this kind. They don’t practice the flexion, they don’t teach the flexion. Already I saw it when I was there. The people, teachers who spend one year to come on the second level as teachers, they leave the school, they don’t know what is the flexion. So what does it mean to protect the French tradition represented by the Cadre Noir? It’s an imposture at the end. So naturally, you are very disturbing when you explain things like that. But that’s the truth. Because for the big public, it’s an imposture to make them thinking that they find their philosophy, a tradition, and then it makes sense that UNESCO is defending and protecting it. There are other courses to defend in the world.

[SPEAKER 1]
Do you have, on the other hand, people that inspire you, where you have the feeling they have a philosophy, they have a way of writing where you also get inspiration and look into it?

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, I have been very inspired by the school of Olivera.

[SPEAKER 1]
Manuel Jorge de Oliveira from Portugal was very influential.

[SPEAKER 2]
And when I started already in the late 60s, and it was not fashion in that time, I tell you. Not at all. Nowadays, yes, but in that time, I was even in trouble with some authorities because I was interested in him. But I’ve been inspired too by excellent jumping riders and you know I was naturally attracted by, interested by all the riders who had much more experience than I and it was not difficult in that time. But at once, I had a critical eye. Okay, but is it necessary with such a talent to ride with a Martingale on a Pelham? Could it be that there are better solutions? And there are people I especially appreciate, such as Michel Robert and people like that.

[SPEAKER 1]
French showjumper, probably the most renowned showjumper.

[SPEAKER 2]
And others too. Frequently I was… admiring people while competing. And I was sometimes disappointed when I saw them training. Because when you go backstage, and you see the daily organization, sometimes it’s not that nice.

[SPEAKER 1]
You developed your philosophy with the School of Lévi-Attalé, that happened after your period at the Cadre Noir. Now you command a huge number of people with Appel, your organization behind it. What is Appel?

[SPEAKER 2]
It’s an association we created in order to support the school, in order to get members, get money in order to participate to events such as Ekitana and Saint-Ferdinand and other things like that.

[SPEAKER 1]
And you also train people to become instructors and trainers with Legerté?

[SPEAKER 2]
Yes, this we started in 2004. Because there was a high demand, more and more interested people. And so finally I started teacher’s courses. The first one in Germany.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, in Germany the community is very huge, isn’t it?

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, it’s the first one. Because I started there and the interest was incredible. Yeah the idea was to select interested people who were already teaching sometimes amateurish but teaching sometimes really professionally and people were looking for something else. and who wanted to know more, to understand better, to teach more, to train better their horses, could. And I started these courses. There have been several in Germany, then others in Switzerland, in Italy, in England, there are some in US, in Australia, and so on.

[SPEAKER 1]
If you would compare the Legerti, your philosophy with, for instance, the classical German way of riding, how would you compare them?

[SPEAKER 2]
First of all, I think there is the same difference between the best of the French riding, let’s say, 50 years ago and more, and what you see today, and the German riding you could see 50 years ago and more, and what you see nowadays. There is the same evolution.

[SPEAKER 1]
So the same process you mean is happening in Germany as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
I was traveling enough all around the planet when people ride in a rectangular with letters around. The nose is touching the chest. It’s incredible. Incredible! And it’s damaging an incredible amount of horses. Without that, we could just say, well, it’s a fashion, doesn’t matter. But it’s really something really bad.

[SPEAKER 1]
And it’s disturbing, that’s at least my feeling, also people that are not so familiar with horses, that come into our horse world for maybe the first time, they see this, they may be at a horse show, and they are really distracted by that because it’s not for the welfare of the horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, and you are now in this situation that it’s mainly people who are not in the riding scene who are still sensitive, sensible to that. when people who are in, they don’t even see it anymore. So it’s terrible to understand that the more you are in this profession, the more you lose completely your sensibility towards the horses. And this is something I cannot accept. But I don’t want to avoid your question.

[SPEAKER 1]
Exactly, the comparison between Germany and France.

[SPEAKER 2]
I can be diplomatic, but I’m not a politician. There were things in common, such as overflexion was no way. If you compare, for instance, photos of, let’s say, Podolski and what you see nowadays in Vienna, the same. You’re horrified. And so what was very different in the philosophy is There is in the, let’s say, German writing, German tradition, there is a well-established system. Everybody applies.

[SPEAKER 1]
A set of rules, so to say.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yes, good. Education at the launch, with side-reins. So already education at the launch without side reins. This is a difference. Because naturally you can educate a young horse at the launch with the side reins very carefully, very progressive, very paying attention to this and that. Nevertheless, there is something to force the position, soon or later. And it’s better not to do. And there are possibilities to bring a horse to a nice neck extension without anything like that. And then it has more sense because you obtain it, you understand? Instead of forcing it even a gentle way.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good.

[SPEAKER 2]
This is a difference. And afterwards, there is this idea that, then I don’t have the German word, the horses have to be first on the hand. And you find that, for instance, Steinbrecht is explaining, I was reading it several times in French and seriously, and others too the horse can become light I mean in doing that at the end of his education when he’s collected on a high level good so this means already that it’s not so many horses who are light in their life because there are not many coming on that level and what But it’s true that when a horse is properly collected, one of the consequences is his tendency to do that. But what discovered Bauchy, which is genius, is that you can turn the proposition upside down. teach the horse to give his mouth from the very beginning for the simple reason that in any country, any system on this planet, between your hands and at the end of the reins is the mouth, is not the pole. So what you have to make saying, yes, it’s the mouth, it’s not the pole. good you know it looks stupid to say that but it’s obvious so he found that if you educate the horse by his mouth first you can also do mistakes there is no system without me with total guarantee but you educate the horse by his mouth so it means already putting the hands down and forcing like that or starting with the side reins is absolutely no question The horse has to be relatively free and you teach him to give his mouth, there are different procedures, good. When he gives his mouth, he’s relaxing. When you tighten the reins on the horse and you feel that, it’s not the same. It’s very, very different. Good. And with that, you can ask for many quite pronounced positions, which are a gymnastic of the neck, extremely bent. This is naturally provoking the extension. When a horse is well doing that already at the walk and at the trot, it becomes very easy to flex the pole, but the flexion of the pole is last in the theory, not first due to the side reins, it’s last, but it can be last after five weeks, it can be last after six months, depends the development. So the mouth, the neck, the pole. right the opposite of the, let’s say, more conventional or German style. First of all, then quite a tight nose bend or caftan in order to avoid the unexpected reactions of the horse doing that or pulling the tongue or things like that. So once again, it can be done progressively and gently and nicely, but it’s not the same approach. And I definitely prefer the other one. Because with some experience you can see how quickly horses change with that. When they realize that you will not force any position. That they come to it.

[SPEAKER 1]
In a natural way, more natural way.

[SPEAKER 2]
More natural way. Now, angels don’t exist. This education enables you when it’s necessary to say, hey stop, listen to me. But as daddy is doing with his children, even the best one you can imagine. So because there is sometimes this idea that it’s just a dream from the beginning to the end and obedience without authority, this doesn’t exist.

[SPEAKER 1]
So you need authority and you also to persist difficult situations and there will be, as you say always with horses, difficult situations where there needs to be

[SPEAKER 2]
But when it’s based on the development of a high knowledge and a full confidence during the whole education, it’s quite easy. When the training of the horse is too often based on constraining instrument, for instance, the side reins are not effective enough, shorten them. Don’t tell me you never saw that. And then like that. the special noseband to tighten more, everybody’s using in dressage, the specialty of educating horses. And then the curb chain more, and then a more sharp bit. That’s not the same. Then there is a risk when there are difficulties that it really turns bad. Because when people have high expectations they want to succeed and there are difficulties. If they don’t have nice solutions but which need knowledge and a bit time, then you and I and anybody, expectation not the good solution, you become rough. There is no other solution. Either you give up or you become rough. I don’t know other alternative.

[SPEAKER 1]
One horse that is very special to you and is probably the landmark horse for you when it comes to schooling and education is High Noon. Many WeHorse fans know High Noon, all the fans of you of course. What does High Noon, the Anovarian horse, mean to you?

[SPEAKER 2]
A lot. He is not the only one. There has been Odin, because he was a stallion. The first Lusitano coming in the school. And he has been incredibly successful, 13 years long. The first time I came in Germany, it was to show in Ekitana with him. The Cardinal was invited. We were four riders and I was showing him here.

[SPEAKER 1]
Oh really? In the big arena?

[SPEAKER 2]
In 87. Yes. 87. So it’s 30 years ago. And I would appreciate to show Ainun in the correct conditions to finish the story. I had others also but were also showing but less known because Odin came on a special period. I came with him at the school and he was very young and I had to impose him in the school because they didn’t And nobody was accepting a Lusitano there.

[SPEAKER 1]
Because only French horses were in the Cordon Noir.

[SPEAKER 2]
Oh yes, there was an incredible opposition. And the Colonel Durand has been incredibly helpful. Because he was open-minded, you know, he was coming from jumping. He was open to any solution, if it were good. And he was clever, aside that. And Ainun is special, why? Because, I mean, he’s my first German horse. He’s an overrunner, but he has a lot of tracaner. He has a lot of blood. He’s a very elegant horse. And I got him in special conditions too. I was meeting Mr. Ampel yesterday.

[SPEAKER 1]
He used to be in charge of the Hanover Federation.

[SPEAKER 2]
We were managing this story together and with Mr. Schade also. I contacted them in 2007 or 2008. saying I plan to do DVDs with Ferdia and I would like this time to do it with a German horse because I was doing with Lucy Tannow and others and good. No, it was not my first German horse. I said something wrong. I had another one before. Sampaio yes and but this one and so I said I would like to find one but I don’t want to put an incredible money so I would like something reasonable.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good. So you went to them and say what do you got?

[SPEAKER 2]
What could you find for me? And after one year, in 2009, end of 2009, when we were going with the school, we were going showing in Verdun.

[SPEAKER 1]
They told me… The center of the… Yes, with the school.

[SPEAKER 2]
And they said, ah, we have one to show you. He’s out of the competition circuit because at the beginning of his being four, he has been injured. He had a severe suspensory problem. So it’s one year he’s on the pasture. We think it could fit to you, because I was telling them I like horses. I mean, I like also sour bread and horses like that. So no. good and they were they were showing me that one so long hair long feet he was not in his best suit but um yeah let’s see not love at first sight no but uh there are there were things i i liked anyway and They have been very nice, things have been very clear with them. They offered me to take the horse for one year to try him because it was a special case. I came to know afterward that in Verdun he was considered as a difficult one and I understand why a bit. And so they took an insurance, the horse came home and I started the training. And after some months, when the vet specialized in dentistry came from Germany, somebody we knew, Mrs. I have to remember her name. Doesn’t matter. She found that he had two broken molars.

[SPEAKER 1]
Oh, really?

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. And one side was pulled off, the other side also, but with roots still in.

[SPEAKER 1]
Good.

[SPEAKER 2]
So, he came to Germany for six weeks, two operations, very expensive. So, I had to talk with the Anne of Aeroband again, listen.

[SPEAKER 1]
There was an issue.

[SPEAKER 2]
yeah and i was already very connected to the horse i said i do the i take the the risk of the operation there’s no choice anyway i pay the operation but you lower a bit the price please and i said yes okay so i got him for very very reasonable money and we started the DVDs and I was naturally sending them and it seemed they liked very much and you know I’m 72 is probably my last horse I don’t think I’m going to buy three others and so

[SPEAKER 1]
Here at Equitana, I’m always, because here we’re speaking at Equitana with this podcast today, I’m always every day talking to Linda Tellington-Jones and she always tries to explain me her 15-year plan. She’s 82, so you still have a couple of years to go, Philipp.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yes, I know. But I’m more on horseback than she is. And I admire her. This is not the thing. But I… It’s not my plan to go on riding as long as possible if it’s to become ridiculous. I don’t want, I don’t want. As long as I can maintain the things on a satisfying level for me, okay, otherwise I’ll stop.

[SPEAKER 1]
Does the breed matter to you? Because you had a Lusitano back then in your time, a Sumur, and now a Hanoverian. Is the breed of matter to you or is that no effect to having a good horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
No. I’ve been especially interested in the Lusitano’s due to Olivera and all that period. But in the same time, I was riding any kind of horse in three days event in jumping. So I was looking strange to both of the sides, you know. For the baroque scene, I would say, Portuguese, Oliveris, and I was a strange guy, jumping like crazy. And for the sportive people, I was a circus guy because I was interested in Spanish folk, Piaf and Passage, and Lusitanos. It has always been like that. And so, no, I have been schooling Anglo-Arabian, Soul Brides, any kind.

[SPEAKER 1]
C’est le français.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yes, but you know. I think one of the proof that the method is good is that you can adapt it to any kind of horse it’s again it’s also interesting to be extremely specialized in one discipline and one type of horse to me is reductive It’s something risky. I understand that some people do it, but I don’t want. For instance, yeah, side reins, it can work with lipid zanners and with baroque horse who already have a neck like that. Try with a thoroughbred who will break everything.

[SPEAKER 1]
It does work.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, yeah. So it’s better to find better solutions for both. Because you can use the same solution for both. the progression will look a bit different for instance with a baroque horse when fundamental first aim will be to extend their neck what generally baroque people don’t do because they need to stretch this neck like that and have more forward gaits the sorrow bride could be, for him it will be very natural and easy to belong, he will very soon have to learn to come to a self-courage. But in both situations, a clever way to use the hands and different attitudes to create this or that is a necessity.

[SPEAKER 1]
Philippe, at the end of every WeHorse podcast, we have the four classical WeHorse questions. And I would like you to answer the first question now. And the question is, do you have a motto?

[SPEAKER 2]
What is motto? Motorcycle?

[SPEAKER 1]
Counter, counter question. A motto, a philosophy after which you live. What’s your motto?

[SPEAKER 2]
In my life, purpose. I should think about that before the podcast. What you are expecting is one of these brilliant sentences saying a philosophy?

[SPEAKER 1]
I don’t expect anything. I just want to know if you do have a motto.

[SPEAKER 2]
Not specially. Not specially. in my profession and so probably in my life because both things work together. I don’t know, I’m often repeating to the students, for instance, they are teachers, I mean, do what you say and say what you do. You like it?

[SPEAKER 1]
That’s a good motto.

[SPEAKER 2]
Maybe another one?

[SPEAKER 1]
We already found one, I guess. Then question number two is, is there a person that inspired you, that influenced you personally the most?

[SPEAKER 2]
In writing?

[SPEAKER 1]
And maybe in your personal life.

[SPEAKER 2]
In writing, there has been Olivera and Colonel Durand. Olivera, because in that time, he was the only… This is what has made him special. He has been the only alternative to the sad dressage of the time, and showing that schooling the horses can be an art somewhere. And this was… a light in the night. Because I think, I was even writing that in a book where I was invited to write about him. I think probably without his example, I would have stopped this profession quite quick. I had the feeling to be in something mechanical and a bit sad, yes. And General Durand because he was a fantastic jumping rider and incredibly classical and he has been a chance for me. saying to him I came in the cadre noir and then I was still in contact with him afterwards and it’s been important.

[SPEAKER 1]
Question number three is if you could give equestrians and horse lovers one advice what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
Just one.

[SPEAKER 1]
We heard a lot of advices so far, but what’s the most striking one for you?

[SPEAKER 2]
There is this sentence from Wachter I like very much. In French it works because playing with the words, but I’m not sure it works in German. You know the phrase by Wachter which says, equity is summed up by two things, justice and justice. It doesn’t work in German. Because I could express that another way. More knowledge, less instruments. More cleverness, less power.

[SPEAKER 1]
That’s a nice program. That’s a very good advice. And then the last question is more a completion of a sentence. Please complete this sentence for me. For me, horses are…

[SPEAKER 2]
It will be banal and awful, but yes. My whole life.

[SPEAKER 1]
That’s excellent. That’s wonderful.

[SPEAKER 2]
With music and other little things like that, but they complete each other anyway.

[SPEAKER 1]
It was a pleasure having you, Philippe, on our podcast. And the time went by so fast. We could have spoken for another two hours. Oh, yes. We have all the content with you on WeHost and looking forward maybe to our next podcast. Thank you, Philippe Carle.

[SPEAKER 2]
Thank you very much.

[SPEAKER 1]
Thanks for tuning in. This was the Equestrian Experience podcast. For more information, follow us on Instagram or visit wehorse.com. Make sure you subscribe to us on Apple Podcast, on Spotify, or actually wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend us to a friend. And thanks for listening from wehorse, the online riding academy. And tune in next time for the Equestrian Experience.