Shelby Dennis: Understanding horse behaviour

*** This transcript was created by AI and has not been proofread ***

[SPEAKER 1]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from wehorse, the online riding academy. My name’s Danielle Kroll, and I’m your host. On this week’s episode, we’re talking with Shelby Dennis, a trainer and equine behavioral consultant based in British Columbia, Canada. She’s also the owner of Milestone Equestrian, a training and equine sale business, and the author of her debut book, The Other Side of Horsemanship. Apart from her academic education, Shelby also has varied horse experience, from the Arabian horse circuit, to hunter-jumper, to dressage, to exercising racehorses. The understanding and correct application of equine learning theory that she’s learned has allowed Shelby to hone her skills as a horse person and continue modernizing her approach as a trainer, with emphasis on equine ethology and ethical practice. So today we’re gonna be discussing equine behavior, training horses with their learning theory in mind, and how we can do better in the horse industry from the perspective of ethics and understanding. It’s gonna be a full episode, so get ready and let’s dive in. Shelby, welcome to the wehorse Podcast. We’re so excited to have you here.

[SPEAKER 2]
I’m so happy to be here and I’m really looking forward to this interview. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

[SPEAKER 1]
Awesome. So let’s go back to the very beginning. How did you get into horses and what were your first few years like as an equestrian?

[SPEAKER 2]
I got into horses really young. I was only four years old when I started riding and it all started through me watching horse movies and playing with my mom’s old briar horses. And I actually started asking to ride at two years old, but I wasn’t able to find a place that was willing to take someone as young as me until I was four years old. So that’s when I got started at four. And from there, I started off in the Arabian horse circuit, riding Arabian horses and learning how to ride on them. And since I was so young at the time, like during that time period, while I was learning, everything would have felt normal to me and good. And I really idolized the trainers that were teaching me. And it was awesome. But now that I can look back with the knowledge I have now, I can recognize how many things that I witnessed that were like downright cruelty to horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
And

[SPEAKER 2]
the holes in my training foundation that I got because there is just a lot of things that I was taught improperly. What I will say about the Arabian horse circuit that’s cool is since it’s a breed show circuit and there’s like a lot of different classes at every show you get to witness a lot of different disciplines going on all in the same place and I think that part of the community was really cool that I got to be around all different types of horses all within the same breed barn. but it’s kind of a double-edged sword because being within a breed show circuit I think is a little bit of an echo chamber and I think that if I’d had an open breed coach or if I’d gone out and done more clinics I would have gotten more context on the things that I was being taught incorrectly.

[SPEAKER 1]
I definitely resonate with that where like feeling like there was a lot of holes in the training like when I When I hear of other people’s experiences with starting riding, and I think, man, I didn’t get that. And then it was almost like trying to figure out the puzzle pieces that you had missed to go back and fill those holes. So I definitely resonate with that. And it’s interesting to start with the Arabian horses. As a young child, to go in right away with, you know, what what can be perceived as a bit of a hotter breed. So what was that like? Did you feel like my first horse was an off the track thoroughbred? So talk about like, getting a wake up call. So did you feel like when you were starting out, because it was a bit of a hotter breed? Do you feel as though you kind of moved along a bit quicker because you had to learn quicker for those horses or how was that like?

[SPEAKER 2]
I think that it definitely helps because they’re such a highly sensitive and intelligent breed that like right off the bat, I was handling horses that were less likely to be like completely shut down. Like I find Arabians and thoroughbreds, they stay very aware, which is why they tend to have more problems and stress behaviors when they can’t cope with something because they don’t go within all of the behavior tends to come outward. And I think that definitely helps bring me along and it increased my sensitivity and I did get into situations where the horses misbehaved like my first horse was an Arabian and He actually jumped out of the arena with me one time and went bolting around the property going like super fast. And I was only eight years old. And at that point, like I couldn’t stop him. So I had to kind of strategically plan to run him at the round pen fence enough to get him to slow down. And then I jumped off. So there is things like that, that I think, in a way set me up for my future career with working with like lots of thoroughbreds and hot blooded breeds. because I had to learn how to work with hot-blooded breeds from the beginning. So I definitely have a preference for like Arabians, thoroughbreds, Iberian horses, and horses that are just a little bit more zesty, I guess, compared to other horses. And I’m really glad that I did start off working with Arabians, otherwise there would probably be a way greater chance that I would actually have been stereotyped against them, because a lot of people don’t like them. But what I will say about that circuit, too, is that I think that the hot blooded nature of the breed and how they are is also what justifies some of the cruelty that we see towards them, because people are trying to take shortcuts to deal with problems that they don’t know how to solve. And unfortunately, with the show circuit, I also think that a lot of the stereotypes that we see about Arabians stem from the fact that so many of them don’t get adequate turnout and they’re not getting their needs met so then they become like the nightmare stereotypical snorty Arabian that’s spooking at everything and can’t even walk past a shadow without spooking. Like for example my first horse the Arabian Farley he would spook at like a shaft of sunlight on the arena floor and like the same corner every single time in the arena but then when I moved him out of a show barn and he got 24-7 turnout he was bomb-proof. completely safe for beginners like within probably five days of being turned out which was very eye-opening for me.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah you’re so right and you know with saying that unfortunately so many of these breeds that are so sensitive you know do get a bad rap or are put into situations that makes them even more sensitive and more aware because you know people aren’t quite equipped to be working with them. So let’s continue along that path. And that’s exactly how I wanted to go into this, because it worked out beautifully, is what inspired you to learn about horse behavior? So you have this experience as a young child of coming up with these very sensitive horses. And that obviously triggered something in you that made you think, okay, why are they this way? Or how can I help my horse that is spooking over this like stream of light? So what inspired you to continue on with horse behavior and even pursue an education in it?

[SPEAKER 2]
I think the very first part of that change was moving my horse out of the show barn situation and seeing like directly in front of me the distinct change in his behavior with no training changes. It was just management changes. I didn’t I hadn’t changed how I rode at all. I didn’t change the equipment and seeing how he just had this insane change in behavior where things I’d struggled with for years with him were suddenly solved just by turning him out. That piqued my interest because I’d never been taught that turnout was as important as it is, and I hadn’t been taught that socialization for horses was as important as it is, so I couldn’t possibly have factored in how much of a change that would be because it was not something I even thought about because I’d never been taught to. But then to have that comparison happen right before your eyes, it’s impossible to ignore. And in addition to being at a more backyard style barn where they did things like really nicely for the horses, they only had in and out paddocks. So when the horses did come in, they never were locked in stalls. But generally speaking, they were out on 20 acres in a huge herd 24-7. And that was the belief system of the person running that barn. So I also started to learn things through her and witness what she did. And that really started a huge shift. But I would say the bigger shift in terms of actually pursuing the behavior education came when I adopted my rescue horse, Milo, and he required me to undergo a massive change because it just it was not possible to train him using the toolbox that I’d been taught to use.

[SPEAKER 1]
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I definitely resonate with the turnout. I had my mare at a boarding barn that only put out mares with mares and geldings with geldings. And unfortunately, there were no mares that were on 24-7 turnout. So because of that, I had to keep my horse, you know, in a stall. And then she got, you know, a couple hours of daytime turnout, and then she’d be back in the stall. And I would always say, please, I just want her to go out in 24-7, but I couldn’t because only geldings were in the 24-7. And it wasn’t until I was able to eventually get her out 24-7, and now I have my horses at my home, and they, like you had mentioned, the in and out, they’re out 24-7 with the option to go in the barn if they want. And the change in her, is night and day, like Hugh had said. Just simply as soon as we made the change to her being out 24-7, you know, with a shelter and all that, immediately was like a light bulb went off. Like that is what she needed for her mental health. And so I 100% agree in the need. And I also feel as though as equestrians, we do need to advocate for our horses a little bit more. in the sense that if you are boarding at a barn that doesn’t offer a lot of turnout, or in my case, doesn’t allow certain horses to go out and certain things together, and it does affect the other horses, we do need to advocate for our horses. And whether that requires moving barns or changing things up, I do think it is something that is very, very important, like you had mentioned. So let’s talk a little bit about Milo. You had mentioned that he kind of changed your trajectory. Can you go a little bit more into detail on that?

[SPEAKER 2]
So his story like is so special to me because like I just I think that it was like faded because when I started looking for him, it was following my off the track thoroughbred that I had who had a soundness issue. and I found him an amazing home where he’s still at and he’s mostly a field horse so that was fantastic. But then I started looking for my next project and I was looking for something that was like 15-3, 16 hands, at least four years old, something that I could put right into training and start riding right away. But then I came across the SPCA ad for Milo in which he was listed as a yearling. They had him aged improperly because he was actually two years old and something about the ad really spoke to me and I like I felt this like internal need to go see this horse and I was like I need to see this horse I don’t care where he is I’ll drive anywhere in BC to go see him because they don’t list where the horses are on on the on the SBCA the horses just say like special rescue because most of them are fostered out so I didn’t know where he was and I contacted them and I was hoping that I would be one of the first people to contact them and that he would still be available and luckily enough for me he ended up actually being in Langley like 20 minutes from where I rode so he was really close by so I went to see him the same week that I contacted them And when I booked my viewing, they said that they had another potential adopter that was supposed to be coming on the viewing, which bothered me because I was like, I don’t want to have to compete with someone else to get this horse if I like him, but whatever. So we went, the other adopter no-showed, which was excellent for me because after I saw him, I really wanted him. And he was just this tiny little twig like creature. Like he was only like 14 too. He was really, really lean and looked more like a yearling. uh than a two-year-old because he had been so emaciated and underfed for the first two years of his life and in utero when he was developing so he was very small and he was really really nervous of people but like extremely curious like when we walked over i remember he like stared at us and his eyes were bugging out and he was like very nervous but then he couldn’t help himself but to come over and look uh and then when we turned him loose in the arena i saw how well he moved and It just felt like the right thing. So even though I wasn’t looking for a baby horse, I ended up applying for him and adopting him because of just this feeling that I got. And I think that it was something that I needed at that point in my life. Because in addition to like all the horse things, I was dealing with like family trauma and other struggles as well. And I think that getting him kind of he was kind of like a vessel for coping and dealing with that because we were both struggling and we were both at a transitional point in our lives, where we needed to kind of move past our trauma and baggage to grow and get healthier.

[SPEAKER 1]
I love those intuitive pings when it’s like, I don’t know why I’m attracted to you, but I’m attracted to you for some reason and I’m going to follow it. I love that. So where do you now? We’ve kind of discussed a little bit about like the need for turnout and the benefit of it and as well as like, you know, educating yourself in the different breeds. But where do you see room for improvement in the horse industry? And maybe it’s continuing to build upon some of the things that we’ve discussed.

[SPEAKER 2]
I think that there’s a lot of room for improvement in the horse world. So it’s kind of hard to go like where to even start. Yeah, for me, I think that the most pressing thing is like management for horses like they need free choice hay and access to forage basically all the time doesn’t need to be unlimited access. They can have slow feeders. but they need to be trickle feeding. And they also need socialization and they also need space. If all of those factors were addressed for all horses, a lot of the problems that people have with horses wouldn’t exist. And then the training aspect of it is way easier to address. Like the management impacts so much that I think that addressing that factor first without even considering how people train whatsoever, I think would bring so much important change to the horse world.

[SPEAKER 1]
And

[SPEAKER 2]
it’s something that’s really, really needed because we’re so far behind. So I think that that would be a good place to start, but I think that acceptance of that is, it comes with needing to accept the science behind it. Because what I noticed in the horse world is a lot of horse people, lifelong horse people, or like people who are training under big name trainers or whoever, they will pick and choose what scientific evidence they want to hear. And if it doesn’t support the way they care for their horse or what they’re doing, they’re inclined not to believe it. Like the amount of times I’ve had someone who’s like 20 to 30 years older than me look down on me and go, Oh, well, I’ve been in the industry for 40 plus years, and I’ve raised so many horses to try to like, deny something that is like a scientific fact, like it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. there’s no reason to think that this doesn’t apply to all horses. In terms of the socialization and the forage-based lifestyle, all horses have the same digestive system, they have the same social needs, and while there may be anomalies to that, generally speaking, it’s something that needs to happen. So I think the acceptance of science would send us Way further forward. And I think that having the industry start to like mandate a certain level of understanding of like equine behavior and management, and also teaching people operant conditioning as like part of their growing up as a writer, so that they actually understand the cause and effect of what they’re doing. Cause that’s another problem. Like a lot of writers have instructors who just tell them what to do. I was one of them. So I’m intimately familiar with it. where your trainer will tell you what to do. They won’t say why you’re doing it. They won’t say why it works. They won’t say what method of operant conditioning it is because they don’t understand learning theory well enough to explain it. So then the problem with that is that we have all of these students who are so reliant on their trainers anytime they run into a problem because they cannot problem solve on their own. and write their own shaping plans to try to roll with the punches and adjust training accordingly. And then they need to spend way more money on lessons and then it’s also frustrating because you find yourself in the position where you don’t know what to do next and you really need help. So I think that the science aspect of it and just the basic understanding of how horses function internally and mentally and then operant conditioning would be like, the three things that if we if we checked off those boxes, the horse world would be on like such an upward trajectory to ascend into being something way way more ethical than it currently is.

[SPEAKER 1]
Absolutely. You know, when like somebody says something and people snap, I’m like over here like snapping. Okay, so I want to discuss something that you, you know, kind of mentioned within that is about how people that may have been doing something for X amount of years or grew up with it, you know, have a certain belief. And I do think there’s a lot of that within the horse industry. It’s like, well, this is the way I was taught. Well, this is how my trainer told me to do it. And like, this is how I’ve always done it, you know, is a big thing. When we’re now seeing so much change or hopeful that there will be change within the horse industry, I think one of the things that we need to recognize is that as humans, it can like change can be scary and change can be hard and one of the issues that we have with the fact that the industry not changing is because as humans we’re kind of afraid to do it whether we’re conscious of it or not and so what would you recommend this is kind of going to like human learning theory and human behavior but like As a equine behavioral consultant and a horse trainer and that sees the other side, you know, literally the other side of horsemanship, you know, book plug for you there. But like going into that, what do you recommend that us as humans can be doing to kind of rewrite our habits that we may have been ingrained with?

[SPEAKER 2]
I would start off with telling people to be gentle with themselves in terms of it can be really limiting if you board your horse, if you don’t own a horse, if you lease a horse in terms of what you can do to better your horse’s life. And I think that people who feel stuck in that get really frustrated because they feel it’s not a good feeling to feel like you can’t make change and then feel also like what something that you’re doing is inadequate. So I would ask for people to be gentle with themselves and look at it from the standpoint of how can I do harm reduction in this scenario. So if you lease a horse and your trainer is wanting to put on a twisted wire gag bit, for example, you can say I’m really not comfortable riding in this is there something else that we could use? Or if you do ride in it anyways, you can be very conscious of how the mechanics work and try to be as gentle as possible so that at least for that one ride, your lesson horse gets reprieve in that scenario. So I’d start off with harm reduction with that and just being gentle with ourselves in terms of recognizing the limiting factors that we have and just trying to do the best you can with the resources that you have. And then outside of that, I would encourage people to just like, try new things to see how they work like a lot of people are concerned about positive reinforcement because they think it makes horses dependent on treats. But if they tried to work on let’s say trailer loading or if your horse is afraid of fly spray or the hose and they took principles shown to them of correctly used positive reinforcement in those circumstances and just tried it in those training circumstances and applied it correctly and looked into it enough so that they got the timing right. They’re not feeding the horse improperly and encouraging pushy behaviors. I think that just trying it in that one scenario would be enough to get people to start wanting to do it more because that it brings so much change. It just makes your life easier. And I think that the hardest part for people is just to initially try it when they don’t believe that something will work. And I think that’s one of the bigger problems in the industry is that whether it’s training or management, a lot of people feel stuck where they are and they feel like they’ve tried everything and like nothing has worked to alter their horse’s behavior when really the issue is the fact that what they’ve tried isn’t actually addressing the underlying problem. So they haven’t seen the change in behavior that they want to see because they’re focusing on the wrong things usually. So as a behavior consultant, I would just encourage people to just try doing some things. Like you can use positive reinforcement without going, I’m never going to use pressure and release again. I’m purely positive now. You can use it in small circumstances to just better your horse’s life in certain areas or make them more comfortable things that they’re really afraid of. There was one thing that Shawna Karash mentioned when I went to her clinic with Banksy that I thought was really cool. that when she was talking about her time with BZ Madden and working clicker training, BZ’s Grand Prix horses, she said she started out with like five or six horses only working with them in their stall, teaching them how to like target and whatnot. And just the basics of positive reinforcement only in their stall, nothing pertaining to riding whatsoever. But BZ told her after about a week, I think she said, that all five of those horses were improved under saddle simply because of the work with like, that was the only change in their training schedule. Their morale was better. They were happier. They were more consistent. They were more relaxed. And it was. Due to something that wasn’t even related to the riding factors. So I think people underestimate how much outside things that are seemingly unrelated to what we’re doing with horses and riding can actually better how they perform in rides.

[SPEAKER 1]
Mm-hmm. And now, how would you recommend that somebody get started with positive reinforcement training?

[SPEAKER 2]
I think like the easiest way for like a beginner would be to do it through protected contact. So like over a fence or a stall, because then when you’re teaching the neutral forward facing head position and teaching the horse behaviors pertaining to like, don’t mug me for treats, the fence takes out a lot of problems that you would have to kind of address and set up the environment to avoid otherwise. And it’ll prevent them from doing so because you can just back away from the fence, wait for them to face forward again, or stop being hyper fixated on the treats. and then click and reward. So it would make it a lot easier and a lot safer for people because they would have a means of getting away from the horse if they do start getting pushy and I think another problem that people run into with positive reinforcement is that a lot of people will only feed their horse like one little nugget of treat and like horses have big mouths they’re used to taking like mouthfuls of food and constantly intaking forage. So when we’re training horses, it should really be like handfuls of food, which is why we use forage-based treats and positive reinforcement, because then it’s not high sugar and it is something you can feed in large quantities. And feeding larger handfuls makes your horse chew longer, it’s more satiating for them, and chewing is also a relaxation behavior for horses. So it checks off a lot of boxes in terms of helping them relax and self-soothe around food while making sure that they feel like they’re getting adequately compensated for their behavior and preventing the pushy, obsessive with food behaviors that can come out of a horse feeling overstimulated. The other thing I would consider too is that horses who don’t get free choice hay before a positive reinforcement session are hungry. So feed them before the session if your horse does not have free choice hay, otherwise they’re going to go into it with an empty stomach and that hunger will play a role in how they react to this session.

[SPEAKER 1]
When you mentioned forage-based, are you saying like hay, are you saying like alfalfa, you know, like a pellet, like what are you, because when I think like a hay as a positive reinforcement, Enforcement treat if the horse is getting free choice. Hey, would they not be interested in what you’re giving them? You know, so what what is your definition of for is forage based?

[SPEAKER 2]
I would say the most common one that I see people use is alfalfa hay pellets. And the reason being for that is like alfalfa is usually richer. Horses like it better. And if they’re not regularly fed alfalfa, it’ll be even more special to them. But I’ve also used teff hay pellets or Timothy hay pellets. If your horse needs lower sugar, the teff pellets are great. I’ve also fed alfalfa chaff and then also the Hoffman’s hay saver pellets for horses who don’t like eating hay pellets, I’ve found that those are a good happy medium. They’re not like completely forage-based as they do have some other things in them, but it’s low sugar and you can feed them in large quantities to the tune of like, I think it’s like two to four kilograms a day, like it’s a lot. So I like those and basically the priority is just to make it as low sugar as possible because for example if you’re feeding your horse stud muffins for an entire training session that’s a lot of sugar and you can kind of play around and see what the horse likes best. If they’re not accepting the treats, it’s not always necessarily that the treat is not reinforcing enough. I’ve run into a lot of horses where if you take them into the arena or somewhere where they’ve been previously stressed, they’re not in the headspace where they can accept food because they’re stressed. So then I have to go back to wherever they’re most comfortable and start working there and then get them used to it before going into the arena or a more stressful environment and working there.

[SPEAKER 1]
When we were talking earlier and you had mentioned about the basic needs of horses and how the management can make a huge change in it, there’s five freedoms that you have listed on your website. So I’m going to read them out for those that are listening. And then, of course, they can go to your website, which we’ll link and read more in detail. But the five freedoms say, number one, freedom from hunger and thirst. Number two, freedom from pain, injury, and disease. Number three, freedom from distress. Number four, freedom from discomfort. And number five, freedom to express behaviors that promote well-being. So I’d like to discuss a little bit more about number five, the freedom to express behaviors that promote well-being. Can you kind of mention what you mean by that?

[SPEAKER 2]
So that’s mostly for horses. It would be like socialization, having the freedom to move about their environment and autonomously choose to do things. So like space to turn out. for example, so then if they wanted to go for a canter, they can. There’s nothing preventing them from doing so. Freedom to forage on hay, freedom to mutual groom other horses or lay down beside them. I’d say the biggest aspect for that one would be the social aspect of it because even if your horse is in a smaller paddock where they can’t run around, at the very least, if they can socialize over a fence line or have a buddy out with them, they’re still going to be checking off more of those boxes because socialization and just herd behaviors are so crucial to horses health. Like they are their entire being is wired to exist in a herd. They’re very emotional and social animals. And I think that in how we’ve used them as work animals, we’ve kind of lost that aspect of importance to really take in to what extent isolating a horse actually impacts their well-being.

[SPEAKER 1]
Mm-hmm. Can you discuss a little bit about the difference between being exercised under saddle and getting exercise, like free exercise out in the paddock?

[SPEAKER 2]
I would compare it to like, like to put it in a human perspective, so that people can hopefully empathize a little more and understand I would compare it to like, if parents had a child, and the kid had a lot of activities that they were doing in sports, but outside of those activities, they’re just confined to their room and doing homework, they’re not allowed to socialize with other kids, they’re not allowed to go to the playground and play. They’re not allowed to autonomously engage in anything for the sole enjoyment and fun of it. And that would be the difference between exercise and turnout, in my opinion, because exercise is structured. The rider’s the one in control. Seldom do we see people using the whole ride to actually let the horse go where they want, go at the speed that they want, investigate what they want. It’s a structured format of exercise where the horse doesn’t actually have autonomy in most cases. So you can’t compare it to a situation where they’re actually at liberty to make autonomous decisions and play and do whatever they would like to do because they don’t have that freedom under saddle for the vast majority of riding situations. And it’s much more comparable to like, yeah, doing like a physical training session with like a fitness coach or something. But more so than that, there’s not even consent on the horse’s part to actually engage in that session. In most cases, whereas for people, we could go, I want to go to the gym and get a personal trainer. And even if you don’t like the actual exercise component, you know what the outcome is and you know that it’s for the greater good. So you could do something like that autonomously. even if you don’t actually enjoy the exercise itself, whereas for the horse they don’t have that same freedom. I’m not against riding them at all and I don’t think that exercising them is inherently bad. I think that if you have no turnout options, that riding them as the only form of exercise is better than them not getting out at all, but we can’t kid ourselves and act like it is it’s a replacement for turnout, that it’s an adequate replacement, because it’s not fulfilling the basic need of autonomy, and freedom to express natural behaviors is reliant on autonomy.

[SPEAKER 1]
You mentioned the word consent there, which is a little bit of like a hot topic right now. And actually, our previous podcast interview with Betsy Vonda, we discussed consent. What is your I don’t want to say definition, but what, how do you feel about the idea of consent within the horse world, the importance, the lack, the need?

[SPEAKER 2]
So I think that there’s definitely situations where like people would need to like make horses do things like that necessary vet procedures or for safety reasons. Like I’ve even had to load horses through force into the trailer if they need to go somewhere and I need them to go on that day and I don’t have time to practice before. But even in those cases, I would look at it from the standpoint of if I have to force them on the trailer and they’re really nervous, that’s a sign that I have more work to do, that they’re not quite there yet and that I need to put more time into making them more comfortable with that behavior. But to me, consent It’s important because autonomy is so reinforcing to animals and it’s so important for welfare. So I would say that we just need to normalize the idea of like horses having a say in the equation and listening to their communication because currently when horses do try to say no or they react poorly to things, we use it as a reason to call them disrespectful, naughty, and punish them accordingly, which in my opinion creates one-sided communication where people can nitpick and pick apart the horse’s reactions to things, but then the horse doesn’t have the same freedom to tell us when we’re reacting poorly or when we are wrong, and it doesn’t allow for enough accountability on the part of the human. So I think that recognizing the horse’s communication for what it is, even if it’s not what you want to hear, it should be taken as a sign of what needs to be changed in the training circumstance or a sign that the horse isn’t a fully willing participant and then we should adjust what we do accordingly. I do think that giving horses the means to consent and allowing training to be enriching enough that they do choose to engage in it has a lot of value because it makes it easier to do everything with them and they’re much more engaged in training and where I would say that consent based training or like force free training has the upper hand is the fact that since there’s not a fixation on like punishing bad behaviors and instead the fixation is on rewarding what you want to see. It teaches horses to problem solve. It teaches them to offer different types of behaviors until they get the right answer because there’s no risk of being punished if you get the wrong answer. So there’s no fear involved. They just want to keep trying. And if they’re actively trying to seek the correct answer, they’re way more likely to find it.

[SPEAKER 1]
Absolutely. So We’ve kind of discussed a little bit about like changing our horse’s experience from the life perspective. So for example, like turnout, forage, that sort of thing. What about like some basic steps that horse owners and riders can take to make the horse’s experience better when they’re in training? So is there anything that we can be doing so that the horse has a good experience when they’re being written or, you know, being worked in hand, anything like that.

[SPEAKER 2]
I would say that getting curious about their behaviors and what it means is a really good way to start doing that. Like, for example, if your horse swishes their tail every time you put your leg on and it happens every time when you present a certain stimulus and they offer the same reaction, there’s a good sign that that stimulus is in some way unpleasant to the horse if they’re showing you behaviors that are consistent with displeasure immediately upon the stimulus always being presented. And there’s a lot of nuance because horses will demonstrate behaviors that can be pain or stress related in situations that are not related to pain or stress. So context really matters, which is why it’s so important to watch what stimuli are being presented before certain behaviors. So I think that listening to their communication and getting curious and noticing signs, like for example, if your horse stops wanting to be saddled, or if they start being difficult to catch, or they start being resistant, that’s a sign that there’s something related to your presence and association with training that they would rather avoid. And then that’s a sign where it’s like, okay, how can I counter condition this displeasure to make my horse happier to work. So I would look at that so that it’s more of a two-sided communication where you’re actively looking at their responses to things and taking it seriously and just getting curious and kind of playing detective to be like, this always happens when this stimulus is present. I wonder why that is. And then the next part of that I would say is to really look at the equipment that we use. For example, there’s a lot of bits and training gadgets that cannot be used in a way that is kind to the horse. They simply can’t because of the physics. If the physics of the equipment itself are engineered to increase discomfort to get a quicker answer on the part of the horse, then it’s always going to feel unpleasant to the horse. For example, a twisted wire mouthpiece is made to create more pressure points and have more bite to it in the mouth. That is the entire purpose of creating mouthpieces that are more abrasive like that. So in that instance, you know right away, even with the softest hands, it’s going to be less pleasant to wear that piece of equipment than one that’s actually made for comfort and one that’s actually made to not create those pressure points. So I think looking at the equipment we use is important because you can get certain types of equipment and it might help you get your horse along quicker per se, but it always comes at a cost. And as someone who is intimately familiar with the cost of that, But I strongly discourage people from trying to find instant gratification through use of training gadgets or harsher bits, because the long-term cost of it is not worth what you get in instant gratification. It always comes back to bite you, even if it’s not necessarily noticeable in terms of the horse regressing in training. It could be due to lameness, general discomfort and displeasure towards work on the part of the horse, or you’ll start to notice holes in training where if you’ve been using bits and stuff to manage your horse, when they’re getting fast to jumps, for example, you’ll usually hit a point where there’s behaviors that continue to arise and are not addressed because it’s essentially slapping a bandaid on a bigger issue.

[SPEAKER 1]
What are some of the like equine behavioral signals that we can kind of look for? Like just to, you know, go through a couple of the common ones that you may see.

[SPEAKER 2]
So Dr. Sue Dyson did a written pain ethogram and she has a whole video on it that’s really great. So for people who want to go on to a deep dive, I would recommend starting there and looking at the written pain ethogram. It’s 24 behaviors that are consistent with pain behaviors in horses and again context matters so usually you’re looking for a combination of several behaviors together rather than just looking at one one-off behavior and going this horse must be in pain or stressed and the equine grimace scale is another one to look at the more subtle facial expressions to determine that but generally speaking under saddle I would say the big one is tail swishing Anytime I see a horse that’s doing the helicopter tail, there’s something that’s not quite right there. It’s not a normal behavior for horses to exhibit, and specifically when they’re wringing their tail in a circle, they don’t do that for flies. They don’t do it out in the field. It’s specific to riding. and can be related to poor saddle fit, underlying discomfort, soundness issues, or whatever. Another behavior to look for is gaping of the mouth. If they’re opening and closing their mouth a ton and gaping wide or sticking their tongue out, that’s a sign of oral discomfort. If they teeth grind, that’s a sign of stress or discomfort. It’s not a normal behavior that we see in comfortable horses. My thoroughbred mare used to teeth grind a lot. She learned it at the track. And when I started restarting her, she did it a lot. And I watched for like soundness issues, and I also treated her for ulcers. But my goal in training was to reduce that behavior. And if I didn’t reduce it, then I would have to go deeper to try to see if there’s an underlying pain reason. or why her stress is still at that degree, but luckily it’s it reduced and it reduced over time. So it’s not necessarily a sign that you need to like fully halt training when you see those behaviors, but the goal should be to reduce them. So if you see like bucking, crow hopping, rearing, stopping at fences, bucking after fences, not wanting to go in the arena, not wanting to go forward from leg and like really needing like spurs or a whip or lots of leg to go forward. All of those are signs that like it’s kind of like I view it as like the yellow stoplight. If you start to see these where you should pause for a minute, try to determine when these behaviors arise and if they’re not reducing in frequency or worse, if they’re increasing in frequency, It’s a sign that something in training needs to be adjusted for safety purposes. Uh, cause there’s a lot of situations that I see riders getting into online. And unfortunately there’s like a lot of pride and being able to ride through things that are difficult. Like I used to do it too. So like no hate or shame towards people who do it, but. it’s only funny until someone gets hurt. And riding has the most head injuries of any sport. Like, I think it’s double football and like motor, motorcycling combined, like it is insane. And I’m sure that’s also partially due to not wearing helmets. But there’s a lot of signs showing that like riders are deliberately endangering themselves and that there’s room for safety improvement. And consistently what we see in studies is that like stressed horses or horses who are in pain are significantly more dangerous than horses who are not stressed or in pain. So looking at the smaller signs and trying to deescalate them and not increase the frequency or have them get worse is how you stay safe and also how you make your horse a more willing participant.

[SPEAKER 1]
That was such a key point to highlight and I’m so glad that you brought that up. Yeah, I, I just, that was wonderful. I’m glad that you brought that up. So when looking at like the learning theory of the horses and then comparing it to learning theory of us as humans. So, um, for those that are listening, like human learning theory, it can be like, if you’re a visual learner or an auditory learner where it’s, it’s easier for to listen to things. Um, if you’re a keen aesthetic, so it’s easier for you to like, just go and do something or have the like physical, um, experience of learning. And I think that a lot of times as humans, we kind of put our own feelings and human experiences onto horses. So like you had mentioned earlier saying like, oh, well, they’re just being disrespectful. It’s like, well, no, you know, the horse’s brain doesn’t really work that way. Um, And we just kind of put our own human stuff onto them. So how do you think that that plays a role when training horses? And how can we kind of recognize when we’re putting a human experience onto a horse and then move forward from there?

[SPEAKER 2]
I think that a lot of it stems from people not actually considering how horses think and how their brain actually works, because we’re predators. We’re predators. We have not developed to be as hypervigilant as horses. And a really good example of the difference between how we think and how horses think is that, for example, you have a water bottle. This is a pink water bottle that I’m holding. If I saw a blue water bottle, I would still know it’s a water bottle. If you turn it upside down, I still know it’s a water bottle. Horses, when you reorient objects, change their color, change where they are, change their position, to them it is a new object. Their brain cannot categorize objects in the same way as ours, which is also why they’re more spooky of things that they’ve supposedly seen before, because they have to be, because a predator could be hiding behind it, and they notice everything.

[SPEAKER 1]
And not to interrupt you there, but isn’t it also true too that like the horse, what it sees through one eye, it then needs to, like when you change, so let’s say you’re riding on the right rein and it sees it through that eye, and then when you change direction and you’re riding on the left rein, it can be a whole different experience for the horse. So when we’re like, oh my gosh, she’s already seen this. It’s like, well, no, they’ve got to reprocess it again.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah like anytime you approach something from a different angle if the object has changed and it can literally like you could move a bucket an inch over and the horse will probably notice because they’re that aware of the environment because they have to be like a predator with camouflage could look like a rock like coyotes for example blend really well into dry grass they’re not a natural predator to the horse but if they were horses are wired to notice all these little things to keep themselves safe. So since their eyes are on the side of their head, they never usually see an object with both eyes at the same time, unless it’s like way far in front of them or far enough behind them that like both eyes can capture it. So generally speaking, like when you change direction or if you flex their head a different way, they’re going to be viewing that object on a slightly different angle and to them it’ll look different. And that’s one of the difficulties that we experience with horses is how their brain categorizes objects because they don’t do it the same way as us where they just recognize that this is this thing that I’ve seen a lot of times. So in my opinion, with training them, the goal should be to get them confident and really trusting in their riders so that they don’t need to even recognize that an object is the same object as what they’ve seen before to feel comfortable and fairly safe in that instance, which is why like promoting curiosity and like desensitizing through empowering horses to want to approach things and check them out. and investigate them is a really good way to do it because the goal isn’t to get your horse so used to all objects that they never look at them. It’s to get your horse to the point where they don’t feel the need to flee from objects and that they can pause and they can self-soothe because that aspect of it is really important and it’s what helps you save them or yourself in really high stress instances where they would be liable to try to panic and run away.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, and I think, too, like the importance of learning, you know, even just the basics of like equine behavior and all of those things so that we can kind of come into it with a little bit more compassion, you know, rather than just being like, oh, you know, you’re just out to get me or, you know, or whatever it may be being like, oh, no, OK, like it actually is processing through your brain this way. Um, so what are some ways that somebody can like, almost like making you the safe space. So the horse may be kind of nervous of that thing over there, but it’s, it’s calm in this situation to trust. Okay. Well, we’re good. Um, what are some ways that as owners or riders, um, you know, people can just even like scratch the surface of, um, helping their horse to overcome those scary situations.

[SPEAKER 2]
I would say the huge thing is to like not chase them with scary objects and a lot of desensitization or like I don’t want to call it desensitization because it’s actually called flooding because they’re presenting the stimulus at way too high intensity. But a lot of that is about like chasing the horse down with a scary object and like continuing to pressure them until they stop trying to flee. And what people forget is like they’re flight animals and part of being a flight animal is the freeze response. So if you’re chasing them with a scary object and it keeps coming at them, they have no real incentive to go, hey, this is not threatening. So when they do stop, you can almost be guaranteed that it’s a freeze response. It’s not actually a response that says, hey, I’m feeling calm and confident around this thing. So instead of chasing them with the object, what I would encourage people to do is when you’re introducing a horse to a new object, you approach them, maybe their eyes are bugging out, their ears are forward, they stop and freeze. Let them stop and freeze, let them look at it, just stop what you’re doing for a second, don’t pull on the rope, pause, wait, let them process it from far away, gauge their reaction, see if they’re trying to turn around or if they need more space. And generally speaking, a lot of horses, once they have that pause, you can coax them forward to take a few steps forward and then let them pause again and approach slowly. And even if you have the option to move whatever they’re afraid of, retreating with the object that they’re afraid of and allowing them to follow it is way more comforting to horses because while they’re naturally afraid of anything new, They’re also incredibly curious and inquisitive creatures. Like if you watch them in a herd and you put something new in the field that they’re all afraid of, at first they’ll all be spooking at it, but they slowly come closer and closer and closer once they determine from further away that it’s not a threat. because they want to check out the object. So we can use that natural curiosity to our advantage. And by not chasing them with things that they’re afraid of and not escalating the stress response, what we teach them is that they’re safe with us, that we’ll keep them safe. We’re not going to escalate their stress. So when we’re introducing them to new things, we should really be prioritizing keeping it as low stress as possible. So if your horse has a big flight response to something, that’s a sign that they were over threshold and that they’re not in the capacity to think. Because the more stressed they get once they’re in flight or flight mode, their learning capacity and ability to retain information is virtually gone because their brain is focused on safety and getting out of there. And it’s the same with humans. When you’re having a panic attack, if someone’s trying to teach you mathematics, you’re not going to be taking it in. So keeping them as low stress as possible and like introducing things to them a little slower and not being tempted to chase them with it. Because if you take it slow in the beginning, it might take you longer to get the horse up to the object in the beginning, but you’ll move along way quicker and have lasting change if you continue to create safety and training by not escalating things. And another thing that I find works really well, which people can take or leave because you can still desensitize without doing this, but using food rewards to counter condition scary things. is so beneficial. All of my horses load in the trailer pretty impeccably. Even the ones that have barely trailered. I have one filly who is barely halter broke and she was feral when I got her last summer. She’s only ever been chute loaded, but when I needed to haul her this last time when moving her, I hauled her and loaded her in a halter and tied her in the trailer and it took me seven minutes to load her when she’s never done it before. And it’s because of using the food rewards to counter condition the behavior and make it feel safer in that circumstance. And then it saves you time in the long run. So while my training sessions for stuff like that might be smaller little steps in the short term, in the long run, I’m saving hours and hours of time because I’m not repeatedly having to do these long term discussions with horses over things that they’re afraid of because they’re more likely to follow me in times of fear. And one of the most memorable moments I have to really drive this point home in terms of wanting to be the safe place for your horse is when horses get themselves into situations where they’re like trapped, caught up in a fence or pulling back on a rope in a situation where they’re panicking but they cannot get free. A lot of horses in those circumstances will fully blindly panic and freak out so much that it’s dangerous for a human to get close to them. My gelding Banksy, who I’ve raised since birth, he tried to jump a fence one time when he was really quite young and he got hung up over the fence with his front end on one side of it and his back end on the other and one of his back legs went through a chicken wire fence and It was horrible. We didn’t have wire cutters right on us right away, and I thought he was going to kill himself if he panicked, but he didn’t move. He let us pick up his hind leg, pull it out of the chicken wire, and then wheelbarrow throw him over the fence, and didn’t flinch, didn’t kick out, didn’t do anything at all. And if he hadn’t been raised in a circumstance to feel really trusting and engaged with people, we might not have had that much ease of dealing with it in that circumstance. And it could have been a really, really dangerous and devastating instance. So I think that training solely and teaching them to be confident and safe around people rather than viewing humans as the people who present scary stimuli and chase them down with it and don’t let them escape is so valuable because when you really need it, that’s when it that training will come through the most for you. It’s like in times where things are not in control and where you can’t manage training, that’s where it’s the most valuable.

[SPEAKER 1]
Absolutely. I had an experience this winter where these dogs that live way down the road from us had gotten loose and they came over to our farm and proceeded to chase my horses. My mare, she jumped the fence and took off. And so I go out, I hear all this ruckus, I go out and all I see is my gelding running around the pasture and I don’t see my mare. I take off and I’m trying to find her. I find her down the road, like in someone else’s yard. And as soon as I see her, I yell her name and she turns, sees me, runs over and sticks her head in the halter. And in that moment, I realized this could have gone so much worse if she didn’t see me as her safe space. Like, if she had have continued to be running around frantically, or I couldn’t catch her, you know, or something like that. And I don’t think that we recognize the need of that until, like you had said, we’re in that situation where we’re like, this could have gone really bad. You know, and I think that there’s such an importance for that, that goes way beyond, you know, any sort of like just like typical like under saddle training that we may put more emphasis on. So that’s that’s a really good point to mention is that like some of this training, it’s like taking the time it takes. So it takes less time when you mentioned about like the trailer loading where sometimes we push aside little things because we don’t think it’s like a big deal or something like that. But it actually, if we just work on it a little bit here and there, it’s gonna be so much more beneficial in the long run. And it really drives that point home when you do have a scary traumatic moment with your horses that you think, I’m so glad we worked on these things.

[SPEAKER 2]
Exactly.

[SPEAKER 1]
So let’s talk a little bit about your book. So for those listening, it’s called The Other Side of Horsemanship. You can purchase it on Amazon. I know that. Is there anywhere else that you can buy it? Tell us about what inspired you to write it. All of those things.

[SPEAKER 2]
So on my website, I have all of the current dealers of my book listed under the book page. So if anyone goes there, they can check out all of the places that you can order it. But my inspiration in writing the book is I wanted to normalize the journey that is like altering the way that you think and like talk about like the messy parts of it and then also talk about what was going on outside of the horse world for me at those points because I think what isn’t necessarily talked about as much is that like when you start to alter your horsemanship to be more compassionate, it creates more compassion and understanding for yourself. So it was a really healing journey for me in like addressing how I handled horses and forgiving myself for things that I used to do and used to believe in. But it also like allowed me to work on my own mental health and be more considerate to myself and made it easier for me to cope with like trauma that was going on outside the horse world. So writing the book was really cathartic for me because it allowed me to talk about all these things that had happened to me and things that I’d seen growing up and just be honest about some of the stuff that I engaged in and that I was taught to do. But also paint like a different side of things to be like, despite the fact that I grew up doing all these things for the better part of like a decade or more. you can still change. And like within these last, let’s say four or five years, I’ve seen a lot of change because that change has just started to snowball and happen faster. And I feel like I’ve learned way more in the last five years than I did in the entirety of my riding career before that, despite the fact that the last five years is such a small segment of my time spent with horses comparatively.

[SPEAKER 1]
So

[SPEAKER 2]
I wanted to write the book to talk about that stuff and just like help people feel less alone because I know that a lot of people might be struggling with like trauma behind the scenes with their family and whatnot and I know that a lot of people have like mental health crisis or that they’ve struggled with addiction in their family or themselves and I wanted to talk about all of that stuff to kind of normalize the struggle while tying it into horse training and talking about the similarities between horse trauma and human trauma.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah. And I think that there’s a lot of us too, that we can all look back on, you know, our experience with horses and think I, I, I shouldn’t have done that, you know, or, or have some regret. And so I think that it is important to look at, okay, well, now that I know better, I’ll do better and, and find that forgiveness in yourself. Um, Now, when you had mentioned like the human trauma and the horse trauma, and how and in what ways do you find like, for example, the fight, flight, freeze, fawn response that we know in horses and that we know in humans? And so did you recognize that before you were writing and then it inspired you to write it? Or did you find that as you’re kind of writing about it, you realize like, oh, wow, you know, I recognize this feeling too, or something like that. Like, how was the journey of did you have it all planned out and mapped out before you started writing? Or did some of it kind of come up as you wrote?

[SPEAKER 2]
A lot of it came up as I wrote, but I like what I remember most clearly about like talking about that with myself is when I went to the Shauna Courage Clinic, she was talking about her own experience. And she spoke about how she was in a state of learned helplessness. And I’d never thought about how I was in a state of learned helplessness. I never labeled it as that because I’ve studied learned helplessness in animals, but I didn’t think about the fact that when you’re in a situation where you’re being traumatized by events around you that are completely out of your control, but are occurring to people that you really care about and want to keep safe, that you are in a state of learned helplessness because you can’t do anything to immediately change the situation. and I think that was really eye-opening to me because I’d never thought of labeling it that way and it’s just like the perfect descriptor for it. Because in that book, I go into more detail on this, but there was a moment where my brother who was struggling with addiction, I walked in on an overdose when he was being resuscitated and that is like the key, like learned helplessness to its core because it was a situation where I knew he was using and I, I like I was aware that that could happen, especially because I live near Vancouver, which is one of the big ports for fentanyl. And there’s a huge crisis with addiction downtown on the downtown east side so it was something that you always worry about when you know you have someone who’s struggling with that and walking in on that moment was like wow this is like my worst nightmare coming true and there’s nothing I can do about it and I don’t think before writing the book that I’d been fully honest with like how traumatic dealing with all of that stuff in such a short span of time actually was for me because I just had to keep on keeping on and work through it and not be able to change it. And like during all this stuff happening I was still posting online, I was still training horses, I was still going to work and no one knew what was going on behind the scenes and I was just having to put on a brave face and pretend that none of that stuff ever happened. So I think that a lot of people aren’t like even within the horse world with like their trainers or like how they show up in the horse world they are in a state of learned helplessness where they feel like they can’t enact any change on their environment and they’re just stuck in it and that’s a similarity that we might share with horses and the more I started to realize that the more compassion I’ve had for horses who have their autonomy taken away from them and stop reacting to their environment as a result, because it’s just such a devastating state of mind to be in. And when you think about how it impacts yourself and how you feel in that circumstance, it’s really hard to not have compassion towards the animals that are put through that as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
Such an important point to make. I’m so glad you brought that up. I just, I love the healing power of writing that, you know, you, you can just start to write and then you realize like, I, I didn’t know I felt that way. You know, it’s, it’s such a, an important tool. And I’m, I’m just really glad you brought up the concept of learned helplessness in humans too. Cause I think that’s an important thing for people to like you had from that clinic, like you realize, Oh wow, that’s actually a thing for humans too. You know, maybe that light bulb moment will go off for some other people. as well. So what is your hope for like the future of your work, whether it’s within your training business, your sales business, your more writing, you know, whatever it may be, what’s the future of your work look like, you know, that you can envision right now?

[SPEAKER 2]
I definitely want to do writing more writing. So we’ll be writing more books. I have two that I’ve already started on the go. But like my writing style is very hit or miss. We’re all like right for four hours a day, like a week straight. And then I just stopped writing for like, six months plus. So who knows when those will be out. But long term, like my goal, which is a bit of a pipe dream right now with the cost of living and like where I’m currently at in life, but I really want to get my own property and then build like a behavior rehab center for horses and have it all set up to make it easier to deal with really bad aggression cases with horses or horses who are really damaged. So my goal would be to find or build a facility that has a track system, turnout, in and out paddocks, group housing, along with all the amenities for training like a racetrack or indoor arena, riding arena, et cetera, and move towards doing a rehab facility for horses. And then my hope from there would be to eventually build it to the point where we could link in behavior rehab for damaged horses to helping humans rehab from addiction and other mental health crises. Because I think that horses have a huge healing power, and I think it would be a really cool idea to pair people who are struggling with addiction with like, let’s say off the track thoroughbreds who are coming off the racetrack that have like been really beaten down in the training programs that they’re in and are coming from a place where they’re like in a learned helpless state and very traumatized and then helping those people work with those horses and see the changes that they’re making and heal themselves alongside that. So that’s something I would really like to do because I think that the support for addictions treatment is really lacking. And I’m intimately familiar with it, especially if you don’t have money for private treatment centers. There is there’s not enough out there and it’s a huge problem that’s not being addressed enough. So I would love to pair it with like working with horses and helping horses and then also do the mental health help for people.

[SPEAKER 1]
Hmm. I love that. I hope I hope you don’t give up on that dream just, you know, for the cost of living and whatever, because I think that’s something that could be really, really important. So we have four questions we ask every podcast guest. They’re like a rapid fire, quick answer question. So I’ll jump into the first one. Do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
Turn out your horses would be the one that I probably say the most. Turn out your horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
I saw on Instagram, you posted up like I think it was on Instagram. You had posted like a coming soon and it was like a shirt that said like turn out your like turn. What did it say? It was like turn out your damn horses or like.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah, that’s it.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
Turn out your damn horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
Yeah. I say that a lot because like, yeah, like you can just your horse will change completely if you do that. So that’s probably the one that I can think of off the top of my head.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah, that’s a good one. The second question is who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
My mom, like my mom, even when my family was really struggling with like money and like my dad had just had a stroke, like she really prioritized keeping me in riding and with the horses because she knew how important it was to me. And she’s been like a really huge support system the entire way along in my riding journey.

[SPEAKER 1]
That’s a nice gift that she could have given her daughter. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
to not think that you know everything. Like being a good rider and being in the horse world for a long time, there’s so much left to learn and we’re studying horses so much now that there’s going to be more and more evidence coming out. So I would say for people to be open-minded and have a thirst for knowledge and be willing to read scientific studies even if they conflict with your belief system and take and leave what you decide from the studies but read them and be curious because you might learn something that could really change the course that you’re on as an equestrian.

[SPEAKER 1]
And the final question is please complete this sentence for me horses are.

[SPEAKER 2]
For me horses are my muse and healing for me because they’re not comparable to any other animal I’ve worked with and they’ve really helped me learn how to be present and take care of myself a little bit better and also just be more patient. They’ve taught me a lot of useful skills.

[SPEAKER 1]
Absolutely. Is there anything else you want to add for our listeners?

[SPEAKER 2]
The only thing I would add is just that if anyone is interested in reading more about my life and my journey, there’s the book that I released that’s available on my website. And yeah, I would just encourage people to be gentle with themselves and recognize the fact that like even the most welfare-oriented trainers right now, like a lot of us get to that point of like extremism on wanting to change the horse world and better welfare because we used to participate in the exact things that damage welfare. And the response to addressing that is trying to make positive change to make up for the mistakes that we made in the past. So everyone makes mistakes. And a lot of the people that you see even at the top of the sport have done lots of things that they probably regret. So you’re not alone in that. And don’t beat yourself up. Just try to do better next time.

[SPEAKER 1]
Yeah. Very good advice and a good way to wrap this up. Shelby will link the book in the show notes so that people can order it and I’ll put the link from your website so that people can choose where they’re going to get it from. But where else can people find you and how can they connect with you? We’ll link all of it in the show notes.

[SPEAKER 2]
Okay, I’m on Facebook, TikTok and Instagram and YouTube. So I’m on most of those pages. Then I also have a Patreon channel for behind the scenes and like extra tutorials. for people who are interested in that. Those are all good places to find me. I’m probably most active on Instagram and Facebook and a lot of my blog style posts go on Facebook. For people who like reading, that’s probably the venue to go to. You can find me just about on any social platform. I’m planning on getting more active on YouTube and whatnot as the weather improves.

[SPEAKER 1]
Awesome. I’m so glad that you came on the podcast. I think this is a really informative episode for a lot of people. And I hope that people are able to take away as many good tips as I know that I have. So thank you so much, Shelby.

[SPEAKER 2]
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure. I’ve really had fun with this.

[SPEAKER 1]
So thanks. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by wehorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at wehorse_usa, and check out our free seven-day trial on wehorse.com, where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.