#82 The Importance of Girth Fit with Tapestry Equine founder, Linda Hauck

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:02-00:00:06]
In this episode, we're talking with Linda Hauck, founder of Tapestry Equine.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:07-00:00:17]
So for me, a girth has to be like a bra, and I don't think anybody's ever thought of it like that. It has to let the horse move and breathe and do everything it needs to, but it's got to hold a saddle in place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:19-00:01:40]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from Wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell, and I'm your host. Linda Hauck has been passionate about eventing and thoroughbreds since she started riding at the age of 14. Linda was a member of the junior Ontario three-day event team, achieved A-level in pony club, and was sponsored as a top junior to train in Virginia with Olympian Torrance Watkins. By 1990, she was competing at eventing at the advanced level, and in 1991, she obtained her Thoroughbred Trainer's racing license. In addition, Linda has level three technical delegate in eventing, and she is an Equine Canada level two competition coach. The bottom line is, Linda has many thousands of hours watching and riding horses. Since then, Linda has created multiple patented products, including the Spurs Seder and the Comfort Girth, which continue to be the flagship products of Tapestry Equine. In this episode, we're discussing the importance of correct girths, being willing to ask questions about gear, and how she decided to invent her own. Let's dive in. Linda, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you. And like I was saying before we started recording, we haven't had a discussion specifically on girths before. So I'm really excited to dive into this topic with you. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:41-00:01:45]
Well, thank you for having me. And I really look forward to how this conversation is going to unfold.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:46-00:01:58]
Yeah. I always like to go back to the beginning with our guests. So can you give us an overview of your history with horses that led you to where you are today? That's a loaded question, but we'll see if we can start there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:59-00:04:20]
OK, well, Danielle, it has been a bit of a journey. So it really does go back to a disruptor moment that I had when I was 14 years old because I grew up in Toronto, which is a fairly large city. And I never I never had experience to horses before an incident in high school when a friend of mine said, hey, Linda, my mom has a horse. Do you want to come see it? And it was like, oh, OK, yeah, let's go see this horse. And I swear that was the moment that I went, OK, there's a whole world out here I don't know anything about. And that's what started my path with riding school horses, competing and all that kind of good stuff. So it was the disruptor moment at 14 that got me interested in horses. And then by the time I was 21, I had been on the young rider team for Ontario in eventing. I achieved my A-level in pony club at 21. And over the years, I competed up to the advanced level in eventing when we still steeplechased. I'm a level three technical delegate for eventing, level two Equine Canada competition coach, as well as I trained thoroughbred horses for 10 years. So all of that life experience. And I also have a degree in wildlife biology. So I have the anatomies and the physiologies and that kind of stuff. And then just watching horses, which I've done pretty much from the beginning and just watching their reactions to pretty much anything and how negative tack could be on their behavior, on their movement. And so I started with the first product that's Persuader Spur because we've all seen how horses can react to that negative pressure, a sharp poke and a jab. And my specialty is that they're about off the racetrack. And I thought there's got to be a kinder way, but it's still wrong. So that was my first product. And then the real game-changing product has been the girth for exactly the same reasons. Anyone that has been around horses for any length of time will have seen a girthy horse. And I know we're going to get into the signs of a girthy horse in a bit, but that's kind of been my 40-year journey in a nutshell, over 40 years with horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:04:20-00:04:34]
Yeah. I'd love to talk, I know we don't have this on the list, but I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about the spur and how that's different from other, because we see all sorts of shapes and sizes and things like that on the market. Could you tell us a little bit about the Spursator?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:35-00:06:24]
Yeah. So, again, thoroughbreds, for the most part, they tend to be a more forward horse, and If you think about it, even the Prince of Wales, I tell anybody, I challenge anybody, especially when they come into my booth, put that traditional spur in your rib cage and tell me what it feels like, right? And what is a horse's typical reaction if the spur isn't used in a, let's say, finesse way? Because that is what the spur is for. It's not your main go-aid by any means. It's your finesse aid. So reaction to a spur in a negative way would be ears back, tail swishing, teeth grinding, tucking the hind end, kicking out, resentment, resistance. All those things that you certainly don't want in a dressage test, right? And then with the amateurs that I used to coach, you know, the horse would, you know, fall in a little bit to an inside leg. Oh, you want them to move over, but I don't want to put a traditional spur on you. Because if you do accidentally, let's say, overuse it, well, you know, a horse can overreact too. You know, buck, kick out, whatever, and then you've got a nervous rider. So, It was a horse back in 2008, a big thoroughbred, a Sieno cat that I invented. I'd been Ontario champion with him as a four-year-old, but I never would have even put a traditional spur on him. And I've got a pretty good lower leg. And I thought, okay, let me think of something kinder. So for me, it had to be about pressure. So let's get away from the poke and the jab to more of a, at the time I said to a gentleman that made me my first Paris persuaders, put a toonie or a loonie on the end of this traditional spur for me, right? So now you've got a bigger contact surface, no sharp edges, and I got to try it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:06:24-00:06:25]
I got to see what happens.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:06:26-00:06:45]
So it was on that horse, that royal horse. I'll never forget the first day I rode him with these spurs. And I thought, oh, what's he going to do? And so I warmed him up like I normally would. And then I started doing the lateral work with this persuader. Moved over beautifully. The ears never moved.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:06:46-00:06:48]
And I thought, exactly, exactly.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:06:48-00:07:15]
That's what it should be about. It should be more of an ask rather than a demand. And I'll give you a real super quick example of, you know, cause and effect. I was officiating years ago up at a horse show and sitting in the golf cart watching the warm-up in a dressage test. And a gentleman was on a lovely thoroughbred type with a long Prince of Wales. And the horse was walking. And he wanted the horse to canter. So how do you think he asked for the canter?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:16-00:07:20]
The typical way. Like the heck, yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:21-00:07:29]
dug in his spur what do you think the horse did oh gosh i'm thinking of all the different reactions that could occur um

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:33-00:07:51]
hopped into the air and and went right into the canter in a little bit of a overreactive way sure yeah okay in this in this particular instance he kicked out okay and then what did the rider do hold back on the reins.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:52-00:08:50]
Actually, this gentleman kicked again. So I watched it and it wasn't abuse, but he went into that dressage ring. The horse was tense, tail swishing, teeth grinding. Hmm. So ego had created that entire situation, all due to a sharp spur. And that's the kind of thing that people need to become aware of. What are you creating? Are you creating the soft, you know, move off my leg in a forward yet respective way? Or are you creating that angst and that anxiousness? And then for my amateurs, it was a fantastic tool. Here, I can put this Persuader on any amateur. If they could accidentally kick their horse, the horse isn't going to buck them off, right? But they wouldn't move over. And so, again, it was just a great addition to the toolbox for horses that are sensitive or as a trainer, I could go from horse to horse to horse, never have to worry about those spurs. They could go on any horse I ever rode.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:50-00:10:16]
Okay. Very cool. I've never ridden with Spurs, and I love hearing of the different ways of gear so that we're moving beyond this, and we're going to go into this conversation here in a second. We're moving beyond, it's just the way it's always been. I've always ridden this way. I've always been told to do it this way. This is how my trainer has always taught me to do it. This is the gear I've always used. It's looking at, okay, but why? you know, it's really looking at the bigger picture. It's looking at what is the purpose of the shape of this? What is the purpose of the fit of this? What is the purpose of, you know, all of these different components? And so I love the fact that you question that. And that to me is something that I feel the equestrian industry is moving towards, which is fantastic. And I feel like we need to keep moving in that direction. Why? And how can it be better? And the fact that you ask that question, not only with your spurs, but also with additional gear as well, you know, looking at the girths and all of that, why, why am I using it this way? Why have we always used it this way? Why are the horses all reacting like this? How can it be better for them? If so many of the industry is going to continue to use spurs and is going to, you know, continue to use tack and all of those things, which we all of course use, how can it be better for the horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:10:18-00:11:37]
Absolutely. I'll tell you something, as a coach, and it goes back to, I wish more people would become students of riding. Just because you can get on a horse doesn't necessarily mean you should, or you should be very... cognizant of what is happening underneath you. And I'm not saying we all have to be veterinarians, animal physiologists, but you should have a pretty good understanding of confirmation and how it leads to performance. Any of my students, and a classic one comes to mind, came from a top A-rated barn here in Ontario. And when I started coaching her, all the tacks she had on, I said, so rule number one is, If your horse is wearing it, you need to know how it affects your horse. You can't tell me how that bit acts. Why are we using that running martingale? Why are we using bit guards? Because, again, this is something that will come up later in the conversation. Well, it's what everybody else is wearing. Not a good enough answer. Sorry. Pull that martingale. And if it needs to go back on, it will. Never did. We're going to pull those bit guards. They never went back on. Right. So you're right. Less is more. That's one of my mottos. Less is more.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:11:37-00:11:37]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:38-00:11:53]
But you have to understand basic confirmation, basic feeding, basic anatomy. Otherwise, yeah, I don't know how you can have the best partnership with your horse if you're not understanding the basics of what's going on inside that animal.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:11:53-00:12:36]
Yeah, absolutely. Now, when we look at gear, A lot of times, so much of the focus in terms of fit and proper fit and all of that, the shape of it, all of the attention goes on the saddle. The girth is kind of seen as a whatever will fit. whatever fits, just grab whatever fits, you know, doesn't matter. It can switch around for the horse. And we're seeing now in the industry, so many different shapes of girths. And so you're often asking the question, well, what is the purpose of this shape? Why should I use this one? Why should I use that one? Which one is going to be best for my horse? All of those different things.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:12:36-00:17:25]
And it wasn't really until I started digging into the biomechanics and pain behavior all of those different things that I really started realizing the importance of girth fit because it's a very under discussed topic in my opinion so I'd love to know why is girth shape and fit such a critical yet often overlooked component of equine comfort and performance You know, I think maybe historically, again, I can go back, you know, 40 plus years in my own career and think back to the days of the school horses and that, that I started my riding career on. And, you know, you didn't have necessarily a lot of knowledge. You were being told, you know, this is what so-and-so wears, you know, back in the days of the stringers, you know, those kinds of things. And you would look at them. I can remember negative behavior in the school horses. You know, they'd always, you know, hey, look at you. Right. As parents tighten a girth. And so these poor horses, you know, they're stoic to some extent. But then they start screaming at us. Right. They go to kick you. They go to bite you. So why? Why hadn't people looked at girls? I think a lot of it was, well, again, we haven't changed it in a long time. Does it need changing? Right. And I don't know what the catalyst was for all of it other than, I'll be honest, in the last 10 years since I released my tapestry comfort girth, I've had the industry thinking. I have the patents on my design. So you can see some of the other designs that have come out that are incorporating elastic now. So I certainly got the industry thinking. But again... You know, the traditional leather girths, they've been around forever. So I think people, including myself back in the day, would think, okay, well, at least I had the wherewithal to go, well, if I'm going to have elastic on a girth at the ends back in the day, because I want a symmetrical girth, then it needs to have it at both ends. But then when you start thinking more about anatomy and physiology, and it was my last thoroughbred that I bought off the track in 2015, right? that it's because of him, Magic, that I came up with this design. So Magic had raced for a few years, and when I started retraining him off the racetrack, I bought him from a client of mine because he was a lovely horse. But you would bring the traditional tack to the stall, so the long leather girth, elastic at both ends. He'd go right to the back, drop his head, pin his ears. You've got a beautiful line. And that's what that's one thing I tell people. How does your horse move on the lunge line? And I had a custom fitted saddle. But it was that traditional girth that when I got on him, he actually refused to move forward at the canter. OK, I'm in trouble now. You mean to tell me I've got to put you away for the winter because you can't get leather soft in Canada in the wintertime, right? Hard leather and it's got the ridges on it. And so there was a gentleman here who did bespoke equipment, Brian at Fincham's. And I went to Brian. This would be back in 2014 or, yeah, probably 2014. And I said, hey, Brian, I have the idea for a girth. It has to address a horse's anatomy. What do horses do every time they take a canter stride? They breathe. Where do they do most of the expansion and the movement in that? Well, from the sternum up, not so much the top of the spine down. So as I started telling him the kind of girth I wanted and needed to be symmetrical, I got the elastic idea from the racetrack because on race day they use the three-inch elastic. But they have to crank that girth up because there's nothing central holding it in place. All my girths have a leather sternum pad now. Let's put the elastic from the bottom up. And then we'll put the leather where it's not so important, up by the buckle ends. And I got to see what happens with that thoroughbred, my test guy, to see if I can improve, one, his behavior, and two, his movement. So I took that prototype to magic, and I'll never forget the first time I put it on him, and I thought, geez, man, are you going to buck me off? Because this feels so different. And we never looked backwards. Mentally, it took him three weeks to come around from going to the back of the stall with his dropped head and pin ears to waiting for me at the front. And actually showed him jumpers that winter where I thought I was putting him away for the winter because he wouldn't move forward. So, again, two different ways of looking at the same situation. Horse that doesn't want to move forward. How are we going to make it move forward?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:25-00:17:26]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:27-00:18:12]
Spurs, whip, whatever. And I thought, no, no, no, no, no. He's talking to me. Listen to him. OK, because there's lots like him. We've all had girthy horses in our lifetime. I've coached for 40 years. I've seen it, been there. So what can we do to help these horses? So for me, a girth has to be like a bra, and I don't think anybody's ever thought of it like that. It has to let the horse move and breathe and do everything it needs to, but it's got to hold a saddle in place. So you're quite right, Danielle. There's been so much done on saddles. So much done. But just really in the last 10 years or so, there's been some major movement in GERS.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:14-00:19:18]
You said something that I want to circle back to. which is parents, you're referencing the school horses and you're like, and all the parents overtightening the girths. And I had a flashback when you said that of being, you know, eight, nine, 10 years old, riding the school horses and always hearing tighten your girth, tighten your girth. And everybody would just be cranking the girths on these horses. Can you tell us a little bit about that, about proper fit? Like let's walk through, a scenario that if I'm buying a girth, how do I want the girth to fit? How high up on the billets do I want the girth buckles to go? Like all of those different things that somebody knows whether or not the girth is way too big and they're, you know, overtightening and overtightening or it's way too small and they're, you know, really lifting it up to try to get it on. Could you tell us a little bit about that as well for anybody who's listening and might think, does my girth fit or not? Am I overtightening it?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:19:19-00:22:16]
Yeah, no, that's a great question. So if we want to talk about the short dressage girths and the monoflap girths first. So there's studies that have come out to show in those short girths, the most sensitive part of a horse is right behind the point of the elbow. Not on the sternum or the bottom of the pectorals there, but more right behind the point of the elbow. So you need to get the girth buckles three to four inches above the point of the elbow. Longer girths, they stabilize your saddle more as well. So you're better off with a longer girth than you are a shorter girth. So that's one thing when people ask me, you know, Linda, I'm not sure about the size I should order. They send me a picture. Right. Let's get it right. So that would be the biggest thing for the monoflats and dressage girths. The traditional girths, your long girths, you want to have it so that, you know, you've got at least three holes left once your girth is tightened. Right. And you don't want it down at the bottom holes. As a horse, the way they're sprung, ideally you get the buckles just over that top where it starts to narrow again. Right. The horse's barrel springs and then boom, you've got your girth buckles there. How tight should a girth be? It's got to be tight enough so that your saddle doesn't slip. And again, over-tightening, there's enough studies now that have shown how it decreases stride length. And it also interferes with breathing. For example, I had a distributor years ago in Germany contact me when I first launched my girth. And she said, you know, Linda, I see you've got this new girth on the market. Can I try it? And if I like it, I'd be interested in distributing it for you in Germany. About six weeks later, she wrote me back. She goes, Linda, I didn't even think I had a girthy horse. But my God, does he ever breathe deeper? And I can hear him breathing. You know, so things like that. And so the overtightening, you know, I get it. Well, I get it. I don't like it at the racetrack. But again, it's... It's the design of the racing girth for sure. But, yeah, again, you're creating discomfort, and you can be hindering performance with a girth that's far too tight. Now, one other thing, though, Danielle, again, we go right back to confirmation. So your quarter horses, some of your Appaloosas, it depends, your ponies, that don't have a very good wither, right, to sit a saddle on. Those are the toughest horses to girth because of that very situation. So I've always suggested people get yourself a non-slip pad in conjunction with the longest girth possible, i.e. if you're using a short girth, you make sure those buckles are sitting up. And you may even have to get yourself a breastplate, not a five point, but just a regular breastplate. Nice hunter-type breastplate to just help that saddle stay in place up front. But they're the tough ones to find the proper fitting girth for, for sure.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:20-00:23:21]
And of course, I want to preface this by this next question by saying that if a horse is showing signs of girthiness or anything that we're about to go over, it is also very important to be checking with your vet. You know, make sure that there's not anything digestive or also related going on. Also checking to make sure that. your saddle does fit and that there's no issues with the spine going on. So maybe your horse's back pain or something like that. So, of course, we want to rule all of that stuff out as well before we just start immediately jumping into switching out gear. But if somebody goes and they get all that, their vet clears them, a bodywork clears them, everybody says the horse is good, the saddle fits, it must be the girth. Can you tell us what are some signs a horse might give that their girth isn't working for them, even if it seems quote fine to the human eye? Maybe they spent a lot of money and they're like, well, it fits. So what are some ways that the horse might be saying, yeah, but it's not the right girth for me?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:22-00:25:20]
So, you know what, that's a great question, Danielle. And what I love saying to people is horses don't lie. They don't know the brand. They don't know the price point. They could care less, but they will absolutely tell you if they don't like their girth. So the classic signs of a girth not fitting a horse or causing pain or discomfort right away from cross ties or behavior like my thoroughbred, back to the stall. Tossing the head in cross ties, looking around, wanting to bite you, swishing the tail, dropping in the cross ties. Horses have been known to just literally fall down in cross ties because of the pressure of a girth. Bolting from the mounting block. Other things that are under saddle related. People, I love it when they say, well, you know, I have to walk my horse out for five minutes because he starts like a crab after I put the girth on. Well, then you need to change your girth. Again, classic sign. Short striding. Doesn't want to make the distances in a line. Doesn't want to pick up a lead. Doesn't want to relax under attack. Doesn't breathe deeply. All of that can and very much is related to girth. So I'm going to give a shout out to a vet in the States, Dr. Audrey DeClew. She has a podcast, The Horses First. And about five years ago now, I'd have to pull up her email. I heard her girthiness and horses podcast. And I reached out to her afterwards and I said, Dr. DeClew, could I send you one of my cinches, one of my long gers, and one of my dressage gers? Try them on your clients. And you know what? Just tell me what you think afterwards. Well, little did I know, six to eight weeks after she received my gers, she sent me an Excel spreadsheet of 40 horses that she tried them on. Gave me their age, their discipline, the gers they were all currently wearing, all of their clinical signs under TACC. Switched every horse in that to my girth, one of my styles of girth. She said, Linda, your girth improved if not cured every horse in that study.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:21-00:25:27]
Wow. And I mean, I love Audrey DeClew's podcast. Like she knows her stuff.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:29-00:25:39]
Wow. It's important because you and ulcers, ulcers can be due to girth too. Again, it's all connected, mental, behavioral. What are we doing to you?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:41-00:26:48]
Yeah. Wow. You also mentioned stride length and restrictive breathing. So a lot of the signs you'd given can be acute. It's just it's in the moment. I don't like this girth. Take this girth off of me. Once the girth is taken off, the horse is fine. And there are as well some chronic things that can occur, some long-term effects of poorly fitting or restrictive girths on both the horses physically and emotionally. Can you talk a little bit about that as well? Like if somebody repeatedly used for... a long time um to and i and i also want to say to no fault of their own in many cases a lot of times we don't know if we don't know better we can't do better so that's why we do podcasts like this right so this is in no way meant to shame anybody or make anybody feel bad if you're reflecting on this thinking oh my gosh i don't think my horse likes my girth um If somebody didn't know and was using a girth for a significant amount of time, what are some long-term effects that somebody might see in their horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:49-00:28:17]
You know, great question. And I would also direct people to their veterinarian to point out actually on the horse areas of injury perhaps. Again, you get bruising. you get with the spur. I'm just going to go back to that because it made me think of an issue with the spurs. Massage therapists can feel the scar tissue of repeated spur use. Things like that. Again, a lot of behavioral stuff, physical, sore pectorals, sore. It's no different than us wearing something very uncomfortable. And then as soon as you take it off or change it, it usually relieves itself pretty quickly. Or you might need a massage or chiropractor. Same thing with the horse. If somebody's had a really reactive horse to a girth, like really sore, can't touch that area, I always suggest get it massaged, get a chiropractor, make sure everything's good there before you switch on to another girth, because all you're doing then is you're putting a girth onto an area that's already inflamed and things like that. But each horse would be different, you know, but structurally I would absolutely listen to Audrey's podcast because she talks about it in way more depth than I could from a veterinarian's point of view, from a structural perspective.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:28:20-00:30:22]
You mentioned something there, and I want to highlight it as well, is saying that sometimes if a horse has had... a bit of a chronic thing going on in a previously poorly fitting girth, sometimes immediately jumping into a correct fitting girth might not necessarily look like it relieves the issue because the horse has still had a little bit of a physical or in some cases emotional trauma to it. I think back, this is a little bit of a side anecdote tangent, but a few years ago, my husband's wedding ring, he couldn't get it off. We tried everything to try to get it off, and he just couldn't get it off. We ended up having to bring it in to the jeweler, and they had to cut it off. And so they then had to resize it and remold it together and all of those different things. But it took almost two months before he could go back in and get it resized because he needed to allow his skin to heal. His skin was so indented. and painful and like calloused and all of that, that it took a really long time for the skin to just like be proper skin again, um, and then get it refitted to what it actually should have been. And that of course is a little bit of a, you know, a significant comparison. Um, we're not overtightening the girth to the point of like indentation and that, or we'd hope not. Um, But that just reminds me of the fact that there is, in many cases, a healing time for our bodies and our skin. That if we remove that poorly fitting girth, it may take a little bit. It may require body work. It may require a bit of time off from riding to allow the horse to physically and emotionally heal a little bit before we then put on that properly fitting girth and see the result. You know, because if we jumped right into it, we might say, well, this girth is no different. They're still reacting the same way. They're still, you know, that sort of thing. And it could be fine, but their bodies haven't had a chance to heal.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:23-00:31:04]
No, you're spot on, Danielle. And that's a great little analogy. I'm going to tell you two quick stories of some, you know, how prolonged behavior, again, related to the girth, Can instantly be changed. And insofar as I had a client who had a horse go to bite her for 15 years, every time the girth. And she said, Linda, as soon as I started using your girth, he stopped. So it can be that quick an association. Some horses would take longer. For 15 years of, oh, my God, this is what's coming on me. But again, Danielle, you're spot on. Every horse is different, and you've got to listen to what they're telling you. Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:08-00:32:05]
Going back to, I love that you included the conversation of the spurs in there, because I want to make this just a... gear in general question here. So girths, et cetera, where we, we inherit this. It's what our friends use. It's what everybody at the barn use. It's what my trainer told me to use. I don't know why I'm using it. It's just, it's the name brand that everybody has. Why is it important for equestrians to question their attack and, You are a perfect person to ask this question to because you have done exactly that. And then not only have you questioned it, but then you're like, well, I'm going to make my own. I'm going to make it better. Why is it important for people to be saying, I don't know if this is right, even though they told me, even though this professional told me or this trainer told me who I trust, I am just getting this feeling from my horse. It's not right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:32:07-00:37:50]
You know what, you brought up an excellent point, Danielle, and it's somewhere that our industry is at and they need to look at what they're doing for sure, for sure. You know, it can be a lot of peer pressure. What are our friends doing? What are they wearing? What are their horses doing? And there seems to be a bit of a, I'm not sure what you would call it, Danielle, but you see a lot of these complicated nose bands and bits on horses. Yeah. And as... A brand, as a business owner myself, and I look for ambassadors for my product line, I can promise you, the more tack you have on your horse, the harsher the bits and the nose bands you wear, you would never be my brand ambassador. And I look at that as the more you have on the horse, the less you know. Understand flat work. Spend more time doing dressage than jumping. Honestly, in 40 years of competing up to a high level, and again, my specialty was the third red off the racetrack, I might have had four bits in my entire collection. Right? And I think that is part of the issues in the industry is the lack of attention to detail. You know, I've been very fortunate. We'll talk about some of my... My heroes later on in the question you're going to ask me, the best in the world, snaffles, a 10 position. They're listening to their horses. They're not putting more and more on. So I think it starts right from the get-go. Okay, what's my horse's confirmation? What kind of issues might they have? How do I really properly correct a horse that falls in? Those kinds of things. You know, anytime I teach a rider, you know, we start with the three, the basic questions. So what are the three things you teach a horse? Stop. Well, that's downward transitions and half halts. Downward transitions and half halts. Go. Upper transition. Lengthen stride. What's the very last thing we teach a horse? Move over. That's all your lateral work. That's half pass, shoulder four, get over into a corner. That's it. Horses want simple. They want simple tack, simple feed, simple training. They're not a complicated animal. We make them complicated. So that is, you know, and so you go into a barn scenario where you look at your horse and go, well, why am I using that bit? Why am I using that girth? Right? And you need to evaluate, okay, well, This is the issue I'm having. Is it really a bidding issue? Is it more I don't understand how to help him with flat work, let's say, because I'm a huge advocate for your horses will jump only as well as they go on the flat. There's no shortcuts there. So and you know what? And again, this was a significant student that I had. I won't and I won't name names. But again, the student came from an East Circuit barn. We took off a lot of the tack. We went right back to, in my opinion, The basics of flat work, you know, why are we running through canter transitions, all that kind of stuff. You need to understand what's the function of the outside rein, what's the function of the inside leg, et cetera, et cetera. And when her journey continued, because she went to university and she started using other coaches, she said, Linda, you taught me to stand up for my horse. Because I've had coaches want me to put this on my horse, this on my horse. And I've said, no, I don't need to. So to me, that's way more important than the ribbons one is now. You know what? You have now become an advocate for your horse. And I wish more people would be. They get caught up in this. Oh, look at that fancy Nancy bit. So-and-so is wearing. Maybe I'm going to try it on my horse with absolutely no understanding of what are all the points that you're now affecting with that one bit? If it's a leverage bit, what are all the points that you're affecting? Hmm. You know, Bernie Traverick, I can remember years ago, because Bernie's been a huge fan of my Persuader Spur when I launched it in 2009. And he's Hall of Famer. He's equestriancoach.com. Guys, you want to go to a great, great learning website. Go to equestriancoach.com. And I had a tough little pony, pony horse years ago. And I called up Bernie and said, Bernie, what am I going to do? Because for me, it's not just the bit. Like, why... what's your recommendation? And he actually said, Linda, just a baby rubber Tom Thumb Pelham. Nice and soft, see what happens, go from there. And because I had tried a lot of different things, and this horse in 40 years, he was a bit of an anomaly, for sure, for sure, for sure. Dressage would be fine, but my God, and we took him back to cantering over poles, all sorts of stuff. But Yeah, and so it was nice to hear, you know, one of the legends in the industry, oh, just go to nice, something soft and simple too, right? Yeah. You know, and that's where you need to go. Adult amateurs can, you know, when they're nervous and that, they want to bid up a horse. You know, things like that. It can, we've got, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, Danielle, but you've got to look at each and every situation and go, okay. How can we simplify everything here? Less is more.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:52-00:37:55]
You're still a coach, correct? No.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:37:55-00:38:44]
Okay. Now, the reason is... I've been there, you know, my career through horses is I kind of say to people, I've been there, I've done that. I've had it where, you know, I was competing three, four, five horses and however many students at horse shows and running a racing barn at the same time and officiating for 21 years. And, you know, I've been there and done it. I'm at a different phase of life now where it's all very much growing the business. So I have to do trade shows, traveling, all sorts of stuff. I go to horse shows and, you know, and have a booth myself. So I just don't have the time to travel and coach on a daily basis anymore. It just yeah, that's not where I am right now.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:44-00:40:25]
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I was what I was just going to say is it's it's having professionals like yourself. In this industry, that is where I think the change is going to happen, because the young ones coming up or or any ages, anybody that is riding under a coach or working with a trainer or watching videos of professionals or whatever it may be, whoever is looking towards other people as a mentor, a guide, you know, something to to look up to. So that's where I think the change is going to happen. I was listening to a podcast once, and I'm not going to name the podcast and I'm not going to name the judge, but it was talking about gear in the different disciplines. And this one judge in particular, she was a hunter judge, and she said, I don't care if it's what's right for the horse and rider. There's a specific standard that needs to be held within the hunting, you know, the hunter jumper. discipline and this is the gear that we expect to see as a judge and I thought oh my god oh my you were doing such a disservice to this entire industry by saying that by you know by using this platform that you had to say that to all of these people that are listening and then thinking okay if I'm going to compete at the hunters this weekend I need to keep this gear on my horse that doesn't work with them because I want those high marks from this judge and I just thought oh no It is the professionals. It's a trickle-down effect that we need to see it coming from.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:25-00:41:10]
Danielle, you read my mind. I had that lovely third bed I designed this girth for. I should have been the hunters. Never put a standing martingale on. Didn't need it. He wanted a non-slip pad. You know, wore my girth, wore my persuaders. It's like you're spot on, my dear. People have got to stand up for their horses and say, you know what? No, why do I need to wear a standing martingale in the hunter ring if my horse doesn't do it? Because then it goes back to Pony Club 101. What is the function of a standing martingale? And I bet you, do they know? Best understand the tack you're wearing and why you wear it. And if you don't need it, don't wear it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:10-00:41:12]
Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:12-00:41:18]
You're spot on, Danielle. We need to create change like that, right? Industry norms.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:18-00:41:43]
Yeah. All right. So tapestry equine, the philosophy of your company is respecting the horse's body and freedom of movement, which of course we've spoken about. Could you speak a little bit to how your products in particular are embodying exactly that respecting the horse's body and the freedom of movement? Like what is it about your products that do that?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:44-00:45:08]
So my tagline, and you'll see it on my website, is happy horse, happy rider. There's nothing as an owner, a trainer, a coach, than a happy horse. With your hack you just went on, the class you just wrote in, the lesson you just had. If you all end on a good note, then everybody's happy. And it does. It starts with the tack, the feed, the training. And so, again, just the spur was a need. Everything on the market. Again, and it's cute. I'll be in my booth at a trade show. I'll give someone a Prince of Wales and say, hey, wrap this in your rib cage. And they look at me and they go, no. I go, well, why not? You do it to your horse. understand what it feels like and then they rub it in the rib cage and they go oh hey don't like that i go yeah neither do i now put this persuader in your ribs and then they rub it up and down the ribs and they go oh and the light bulb goes on it's like oh right there's it doesn't hurt well it's not meant to and again let's understand what spur use is all about it's a finesse aid it's not your major goal weight if you if you put your lower leg on your horse and he doesn't move Move. Best you back it up with a stick and say, look, go means go. Goes back to the three things we teach a horse. Stop, go, move over. Either you train them or they train you. Let's do it in the kindest way possible. And it's funny. It also comes down to the name of the product. So this persuader, the gentleman that did the artwork for me, came up with the tagline, the art of gentle persuasion. And so I thought that was brilliant because, yes, I'm not I'm not demanding. I'm not, you know, forcing. I'm persuading you to move off the spur. And you can get brilliant results with a happier horse. So that was key for me. And then again, the whole concept of the girth, again, knowing anatomy and physiology and what it would be like to wear a corset or a tight bra that's digging in. It's like, how can this possibly be comfortable for a horse? And we expect them to run and gallop. So again, they're taking a breath every time they take a gallop stride. Well, wouldn't you want to girth that breeze with them? Rather one that they're pushing against, right? And then just all the behavioral issues that you can get around the girthing process. I thought, you know what, if we're going to subject the horses to what we want them to do, then we owe it to them to make them as comfortable as possible. And it's cute. I have a therapeutic barn north of me and they have lots of my girths on their therapy horses. And they have a really interesting angle as well. One, they're comfortable for our therapy horses. And two, it wouldn't look very good to our clients if the horses were trying to bite the students when we were tacking up the therapy horses, would it? And again, no, you're quite right. The parents are standing back and watching their child have a lesson. And it's like, why is that horse wanting to, you know, kick at my daughter or whatever? But they've solved the problem, Linda. Our horses love your girls, right? Mm-hmm. So, again, I just come at a place from I need you guys to be happy. I need you to perform. And what can I do to help you with that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:10-00:45:22]
Yeah, I love that. I love the philosophy. I love the taglines. I love that that's where it all came from. And that's how it's continued to stay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:22-00:45:26]
I'm not done. I've got other products coming.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:27-00:46:09]
I love that. One thing that I see a lot as well is in a lot of the barns, whether it's busy boarding barns or lesson barns or adult barns, whatever it may be, there's always a lot of things going on. The environments are busy, you know, other horses, other people. Maybe you just came from work and you've had, you know, just this hectic day. Maybe you've got something else that you're thinking about. and you're just kind of mindlessly tacking your horse up. How do you think riders can become a little bit more in tuned to their horse's body language and to be paying attention to feedback when it comes to not only girthing, but just tack comfort in general?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:12-00:48:58]
You know, I've always said, right, the eye is the window to the soul. So as soon as you make contact with your horse while he's either out in the paddock or in a stall, have a look at the eye and say, okay, where are we today? How are you doing? Right? And, you know, another thing, if your horse is out in the paddock and you're going to bring them in to ride them, put them in a stall first, let them have a pee, let them have a drink, and then bring them out on cross ties. That will create a much more relaxed horse, believe it or not. They're not dancing around going, I need to have a pee. So take that horse from the paddock into a stall, let them do their business, and then you go and get your tack. while your horse is in the stall, right? Once you're organized on the outside with all your grooming stuff in your tack, then you bring your horse to the cross ties. And then, you know, you can't go wrong lunging a horse and seeing how do you behave on a lunge line? Do you move great? Do you pick up your leads equally both sides? Do you drop your head? Are you relaxed? And then put your tack on and see what kind of horse you have with no weight on it And if you see, okay, you don't pick up the lead as well, or you're not as happy moving forward, well, then you've got something going on with your tack. Narrow it down. Is it your saddle? Is it the girth, right? So those are standards for me. If I see a horse not moving quite rightly under tack, okay, let me see it move on the lunch line or, you know, free in a round pen, whatever. And if you're showing me the same thing there, well, then we've got other issues, right? Not just tack issues, perhaps. So, you know, again, and then as you're grooming them, like, how were you reacting to me being groomed? Okay, you're okay with it? Fine, girth area, saddle area, we're all good. And then you start tacking up. What does your horse do? Like, I love it. You know, another client's horse, real cutie, found him for them years ago. He doesn't move when you tack him up, right? Ears forward, happy face, does, you know, you can do whatever you want to him. Just a great, you know, you know he's a happy guy, right? Yeah. And then I'll go to a barn and I'll see a horse that's doing all the classic signs, right? And you want to say to the owner, like, he's talking. He's talking. Are you listening? And what are you going to do about it, by the way? Yeah. Right? And try and educate people that way. You know, it's interesting. I had a vet order some girths. And she said, you know, Linda, it wasn't until I heard the Dr. Audrey DeClew podcast that even as a vet, I started paying attention to the girth. So we can't assume, you know, we're not here to make anybody feel bad, but you know what? There's a lot, enough knowledge out there now. that you need to listen to your horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:00-00:49:24]
Yeah. Last question before we jump into our rapid fire, and you led me perfectly into it, is looking at education. What are some educational resources that you're aware of that could help people in terms of TACFIT, in terms of specifically girth, or anything in the related realm? Do you know of anything, any like...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:25-00:50:45]
youtube videos or anything like that that anybody can go to that you think might be helpful for them for tack or just horses in general tack manual of horsemanship right the british version fantastic book that everybody should have um Tack. Oh, geez. Honestly, Danielle, I can't really steer you to anybody. Yeah. Other than my own Instagram, because I hire a social media company and Saturdays are typically anatomy days. we'll do physiology and anatomy posts again just trying to make people aware of you know well these are the key areas of of what's affected with a girth or you know hey let's understand the hind end muscles because you know you always want to ride a horse from the hind end to the front end you know so understand how it's all connected i don't have any tack books myself i don't I think 40 years of experience and I've been a student of the game, right? A-level pony club, doing the race horses, the eventing, the conditioning. You know, I have my own library of information to be perfectly honest.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:45-00:50:54]
Absolutely. So we'll link in the show notes, your website, your Instagram. I think also we'll link the Facebook and YouTube.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:56-00:52:22]
um as well and so that people can find all the things and then the manual of horsemanship that linda was referencing is the standard must-have for pony club um so if you've got your pony club books hiding somewhere in an old bookcase go dust them off and maybe give them a reread And anything anything that can help you understand more in confirmation, more in physiology and anatomy. I remember when I did my A and that and when we were at that section and my tester, my examiner actually cut me off and said, OK, well, you know more than me. Yeah. But over the years, one of my favorite things I used to do when I still worked with the Pony Club in my area, because it's real life, I would take people down to the racetrack, Fort Erie predominantly here in Ontario, and try and find them their next show horse, right? And so I would do it with Pony Club. I would get the group together, and we'd pull out a horse, and I'd go, hey, guys, here's $10,000 of my dollars. Are we buying this horse as whatever dressage horse show jumper? I'd probably make it a sport that I'd look at its confirmation and go, you wouldn't necessarily be suitable for hilarious. Cause these kids don't get very serious. Like I'm spending somebody else's money. I said, Hey, this is a life. This is, I've been to two year old in training sales, buying resource resources for, for clients. Right. So, you know, I just become a student, absorb as much knowledge as you can.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:24-00:52:35]
Absolutely. Yeah. Linda, our rapid-fire question section is just the first thing that pops to your mind. So the first one is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:37-00:52:44]
Well, if it comes to horses, one of my favorites is, and again, it's a racetrack saying, if you don't wait for them, they'll make you wait.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:44-00:52:45]
Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:47-00:52:47]
I love that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:47-00:52:50]
That applies to a lot of areas, not only in horses, but in life.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:51-00:53:04]
It's classic, though, and it's so true. You know, you want to rush a horse up the levels. You know what? Before you know it, you're going to be back down there again, you know, fixing whatever you need to fix. So that that's a great one. If you don't wait, they'll make you wait.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:06-00:53:09]
Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:10-00:54:52]
Hands down, two guys, Mr. Mark Todd and Mr. Albert Vorn. Mark Todd really doesn't need any introduction. I've been fortunate enough to ride in two of his clinics back in the, I'm going to say it was the 90s. And for me, Simple, simple, simple. The beauty of a soft shoulder and a following elbow. He could get on any horse and within five to ten minutes make it look like it could go to badminton. He was not using force. Watch Mark Todd. You know, he would have set up like let's say it was a four stride combination. Mark would come around, do it in five, do it six, do it in seven, do it in four. Nothing hardly changed. It was just beauty of a proper upper body, a beautiful shoulder as a rider, and then that following elbow. So he was huge. He's always been in my head as a rider and as a coach. And then Albert Vorn, again, fortunate enough to take some clinics with Albert. He was silver medalist at the Sydney Olympics in show jumping. And what I took away from Albert, which I think is so important for the industry, it's all about the canter when you're jumping. Let the horse's head be where he's comfortable. That could be a higher-headed horse. That could be a medium-headed horse, you know, where they're hanging it. Lucinda Green, she would have been a key one for me too way back in the day because she was so inspiring as a coach. She would make you think you could do badminton, right? And, yeah, so those two gentlemen for sure were and always will be very influential, the power of the upper body when you're riding, right?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:52-00:54:59]
Yeah. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:00-00:55:29]
Do what's best for your horse. And that means you need to stand up to your coach, your trainer, your friends. As they're saying, well, I'll put this on or try this or I want you to do that. And in your gut, if you don't think it's the best decision for your horse, then you need to be the horse's advocate and say, you know what? I don't think that's right for him right now. Do what's best for your horse, because guess what? If you don't wait for them, they'll make you wait.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:32-00:55:37]
And the last one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:37-00:55:38]
Life-changing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:38-00:55:41]
Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:42-00:56:10]
I have the horses in my life to thank for so much. I've been fortunate to travel the world and... go to trade shows and meet some amazing people and horses around the world. Um, the business journey that I've been on. Um, yeah. And just all, all the things that I personally as a rider and a coach, um, have been able to experience because of the horses in my life. So yeah, life changing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:10-00:56:29]
Hmm. I love that. Linda, we're going to put everything in the show notes like I listed your website and then the social media links that go with it. Is there anything else that you wanted to say to our listeners or any way that they could connect with you or any of the things?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:32-00:57:02]
Really, Danielle, I think I've probably said most of what I feel when it comes to being with horses, working around horses, working with them. Always feel free to reach out to me. I take phone calls on a daily basis from people wanting to know about girth fitting and things like that. And, you know, I've always, you know, I love the challenge of a young horse. You know, those have, you know, just give them the time and understand them. And, yeah, and just be your horse's best friend.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:03-00:57:04]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:05-00:57:06]
Well, thank you so much, Linda.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:06-00:57:29]
This has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. I know that as we've been talking, I've been thinking of all the ways that my horses have been responding to their girths. So it's really started to give me some things to think about and some things to pay attention to. And I'm sure it's done the same for our listeners. So thank you so much for all the wisdom that you shared and for speaking with me today.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:29-00:57:32]
Well, Danielle, thank you so much. It's been a fabulous conversation.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:34-00:58:08]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

‍